Posted on 09/24/2005 2:11:22 PM PDT by mwfsu84
Listening to a conservative radio talk show today, I heard the host bash Bush and the GOP on their lax immigration policies. He stated that this issue threatened to tear the GOP apart. And he isn't the first person to make that prediction.
I'm a staunch Republican who would hate to see such a dire prediction come true. I also admit in many ways I share Bush's views on the subject. Since he has done a poor job defending his views, I'd like to explain my own. Let's have a discussion and see if we can find some common ground. Or perhaps I am misinformed on the subject, in which case, I'd appreciate your input. I'd like to find some common ground...because I don't want this issue to destroy the conservative movement. Only civil responses, please. I didn't come here to fight.
I've always believed that America should be open to anyone who wants to work hard, live in peace. And the vast majority of immigrants who cross our southern border fit that description. I know several small business owners who hire them - both legally, by the way. They say they can't find Americans do the jobs they hire immigrants for. And these owners are extremely pleased with the immigrants' work ethic. They bust their tails and never complain.
Hispanic immigrants, for the most part, place a high value on their families. That's why many of them come here. A high percentage of them are practicing Catholics.
In my view, these are not the kind of people we should be turning away.
As I understand it, those who oppose illegal immigration do so for the following reasons:
1. It's in violation of the law.
2. Illegal immigrants use up services they don't pay for - schools, health care, etc.
3. Open borders leave us vulnerable to terrorists.
4. Many immigrants are violent criminals.
There is some validity to all of these arguments. Here are my responses.
1. Most of the immigrants here are in violation of the law. But like Prohibition in the 1920's, or the 55 mile an hour speed limit, it's a law that can't be effectively enforced.
We share an 1800 mile border with Mexico. What kind of barrier - physical or human - would possibly suffice to seal us off?
2. It's true that many Hispanics use services they didn't pay for. And I would hold their employers accountable for that. Employers should be the ones to report immigrants, taking out taxes from their payrolls. If not, the government should shut those businesses down, or fine them severely.
3. Open borders leave us vulnerable to terrorism. While I agree with this to an extent, I'd be more worried of terrorists crossing our border with Canada...a much longer border than the one with Mexico, by the way.
As I see it, there are two ways we can fight terrorists. We can seal off our borders, which is a defensive move. Or we can go on the offenisve, as we're doing in Afghanistan and Iraq right now. But we can't do both. Doing both would be cost prohibitive.
I would suggest the reason we haven't suffered a major terrorists attack in this country in over four years - despite our open borders - is because our strategy of going on the offensive is working.
4. Many illegal immigrants are violent criminals. I have no doubt this is true, but I'd like to know what the percentage is. As I said before, I believe the vast majority of individuals don't fit this description.
Hispanics are already the largest minority in America. Who they vote for in the future will determine which party stays in power.
What do I mean by migrant workers? The ones who move across the country season to season, during the harvest of different crops, from fruit to vegetables.
"We can get as much cheap labor as we need by increasing the number of legal immigrants that we let into the United States."
My point exactly. But we'll need millions of them. Would you be opposed to letting millions of immigrants in this country, if they went through legal procedures?
"Why don't hs and college kids have their first jobs? Illegals take them, that's why."
No, that's not why. Demographics. There aren't as many kids under 25 as there were twenty years ago. Just like there won't be enough workers to pay for your social security when you retire.
IOW, they'll turn the U.S. into the same craphole they're escaping.
"The Mexicans/Hispanics are the group that is changing "America the melting pot" to "America the sewer pit"
Gee whiz, Varon, I sure hope Americans didn't feel that way about your parents when they came here.
And we are a melting pot. Even the English language borrows from other languages.
"The Mexicans are the only group of significant numbers that maintain allegiance to and citizenship of their native country while attempting to get involved in the internal affairs of their host country to benefit their homeland."
Actually, not all illegal immigrants are Mexican. There are large numbers from Guatmaela, the Dominican Republic, Honduras.
Can't blame 'em due to the high cost of compliance and regs...
But has anyone seen the cost of goods, labor and services decrease?
Friends in the construction business tell me the mex's put up structures very quickly... and the work is shoddy. When has new construction prices decreased? NOT.
Is McDonalds, a world-wide corporation, just the jobs we see from the front counter? No, there is a lot more going on than just a few front counter jobs. For example, where do they get the materials for their famous sandwiches? How do those materials get to the various resturants around the world? Do they still run those TV ads? Where do those come from, and how are they paid for?
This could probably be Googled quickly enough: What fraction of the construction industry is independent contractors, and what is associated with the corporate world? Perhaps some workers, especially day labor, are illegals, but what about construction materials? Where do the materials come from? Local forests? Where do the tools, the trucks, come from? Detroit? Where does the portland cement come from? A local geological deposit? Where do the nails come from? Great Lakes iron ore?
You see. It's more than the on site workers, whatever percentage are dragging down those wages, even independent contractors interface with worldwide corporations.
The materials for the sandwiches....are actually something I hate knowing.
Lets just say the cattle isn't the finest.
You may be referring to the farmhands though, in which case, McDonalds isn't the boss, its the cattle growers, McDonalds would be a consumer.
Regarding transportation and such, your referring to the outside contractors.
It doesn't mean McDonalds hires illegals, but its an argument that they, contribute or purcahse from those who do, but that arguement can keep carrying on, to anyone who buys from McDonalds....or be default any single restaurant or eating establishment anywhere in the country.
Yeah. Anyway, the business organization of the country is vastly complicated. It's probably too complicated to use reliably in the illegal immigration issue. The anchor baby part of the issue is most annoying. That one needs to be addressed by Congress and probably up to the SC for a final reading. I feel it is a violation of the intent. The influx of illegals itself is a mystery. When the railroad was employing illegal Chinese for construction through the mountains, Chinese directly imported from China, the Ninth Circuit ruled the corporation was okay to do so. It's a mess, but 20-30 million illegals is an unbelieveable mess, Ninth Circuit or not.
We do need to continue into sciences and related professions, but those are not jobs being taken by illegals, and the people in those fields, usually worked somewhere or doing something else earlier in life (Like me, I work in real estate, when I was young, early college, I worked in retail).
There are many jobs, construction being one type, that need on the spot labor and labor demands, even a scientist needs to pay someone when he buys groceries, but the cashier won't be a neighbors son earning extra money to buy a car, it will an illegal immigrant.
The groups hardest hit, are usually high school students and college students, not to mention workers who work in on the spot labor type jobs and are now watching the wages of those occupations stagnate not due to natural market efficiency, but due to the injection of illegal labor which is used to suppress wage growth.
I.E. I need someone to do repairs, but as long as more and more illegals compete with Americans for those jobs, I could save more by hiring those illegals, as could or would my competitors, eradicating Americans who had done those jobs by making them compete with labor that is willing to work for sub-market value, these things have forward cyclical effects.
What???
I never said that, where did you get that quote from?
They have, and do in some places.
Look at Hawaii and Alaska.
They do not deal with or have issues or problems with illegal immigration.
Before illegal immigration like we have now and at this level, we managed jus fine...we also had controlled immigration.
There will always be a demand for cheap labor, my boss would love to cut my pay as much as possible if they could, but they can't, and replacing me wouldn't be easy especially for my qualifications.
Before the civil war, the south used captive slave labor, after the war ended, those owners had to pay wages and hire folks, the consumer managed just fine.
Florida State University or FResno State University?
The argument boils down to: "Are you in the US legally or illegally?"
IMHO, we should begin rounding up and sending home every person in the US who is here illegally!
If foreigners want to live and work in the USA, that is fine with me, but do it legally!
We are, after all, a nation of laws aren't we? And how can we expect illegal aliens to respect our other laws when they disrespect one of the most fundamental laws of the land?
VERY well stated. Excellent points made.
Where did you get those numbers from?
Congressman Tom Tancredo puts the number of illegals at an estimate of around 10 or 11 million (though growing rapidly).
best post here
And that's where part of the culture change comes in. Those teens can no longer find the part-time menial but educational work so instead they spend their time _________? (fill in the blank with whatever fills the time of bored teens these days) How do they learn about the real world, find out what it's like to work for a living, if all those 'jobs that Americans won't do' are taken by immigrants? And while you're at it, kid, he's not only taking your place in the entry level job market, he's overtaking your language. Por Espanol...press 1, for English...press 2.
What I'm trying to say is we may be helping to lift up Mexico from its Third World Country status but it's being done at the expense of America being brought down. (Quite similar, actually, to 'bringing democracy to the Middle East' and other parts of the world while allowing socialism to creep into our own country, isn't it.)
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