Posted on 09/19/2005 3:32:59 PM PDT by blam
September 19, 2005
Notebook: Archeology
Medieval ancestors measured up to our height standards
By Norman Hammond, Archaeology Correspondent
OUR ANCESTORS were as tall as we are, contrary to popular belief. Over the past five millennia the average height of men in Britain has remained stable at about 170cm (5ft 7in), and that of women at 160cm (5ft 3in). We may be surprised at how small the armour worn by the Black Prince or King Henry V was, but such giants on the battlefield were not physically large and were towered over by contemporaries of all classes.
“The enduring myth that people in the past were much shorter than we are today contains a small element of truth,” writes Sebastian Payne, chief scientist at English Heritage, in British Archaeology. “There have been small changes, and average height has increased by an inch or so over the past 50 years,” he says, attributing the increase to better health and nutrition.
The myth seems to stem from such things as low doorways on some medieval houses, and the small suits of clothes and armour in museums. But Dr Payne says that there are plenty of tall doors, and we simply don’t register “normally” sized outfits. “Recruits in 18th and 19th-century military records were considerably below today’s average heights,” he says, but adds: “Recruits are often from poorer families whose average height is less, and were often not fully grown.”
In the abandoned medieval village of Wharram Percy in Yorkshire, the churchyard has yielded hundreds of skeletons for analysis. There “ten-year-olds were around 8in shorter than children today: by the time they were fully grown they were nearly as tall as modern adults”.
A study by Charlotte Roberts and Margaret Cox, drawing together evidence of stature from skeletons across the country, shows that adult heights in both sexes have remained constant since the Neolithic era.
British Archaeology No 84: 51
But I feel sorry for children of vegetarians who grow up to be tiny.
A speck with a Garand that knew how to use it. Probably the first, and many time the last, they saw of him, if they saw anything, was the muzzle flash of that Garand.
These are military uniforms, right? That would make them very authentic. Too small, too big, too tight or too loose. Never just right.
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I'm well aware there are smaller people, so no.
I've only been to Canada and Mexico. I was pretty easy to spot in Mexico. The avg. height down there must be far less than 5'7. I got a lot of finger-pointing.
Yeah, but the armor of Henry VIII is awfully small. Why I don't know, because the royal family could eat well if anyone could.
I think there may have been two races of men. Large (Viking & nobles size--larger fighters tended to survive) and small (peasant size)
Sorry for the loss of your son, can't imagine. I come from Norwegian stock, as do many of my friends, who almost to a man are above 6ft. Most of the people I meet, especially in the east, when I'm traveling for work, are surprised when I walk in for the first time.
I don't know... I am the shortest of my family at 5'8". My mother is 5'10", my father was 6'. My brother is 6'4". I have first cousins who are 6'5" and 6'7. Both of my grandmothers were 5'10". My mother's grandfather was well over 6' tall (WWI vet). Much of the family has been in America since before the American Revolution. This is relevant because...
What I see is the the European stock in my family is shorter in height than the parts of the family that came over to America earlier. In other words, the longer the branch of the family has been in America, the taller the people in that branch tend to be. I think I am just a throwback to the shorter German genes.
bah, what do I know.
There are some German greatsword manuals from the 1400's. Basically, they choked up on them a lot and used them as levers, smacked their opponent with every part of the sword -- pommel, quillons, point and edge. They really aren't all that heavy.
If you have a dead ten year old and a dead adult, how can you claim the ten year old will become a "normal" size?
Yeh...and I'd like to see the dead ten year old's medical history and know cause of death.
Can you document any of that? Actually, the "heavily decorated" stuff is generally fluting, bends and creases that stiffen and reinforce the metal plates, thus allowing for a thinner gauge of plate and lighter armor.
A lot of armor you see mounted appears smaller because it is on a rack, not on a person. Armor has articulation that expands and contracts with movement. Another thing is many people have seen Henry VIII's boyhood armor in the Tower and not realized it was made for him while still a youth.
I'm not sure I buy this.
Btw...USA height has gone down....mainly due to amerindian immigration....unlike Plains indians who are big suckers.
tell Shack that and most of the NBA......
I know one thing for sure....we had to extend our antique oak bed by about 5" just to get a normal double mattress to fit.....and it was an adult bed.....
I don’t recall Henry leading his troops into battle so the armor was no doubt ceremonial.
In his youth, Henry was a great jousting and tournament aficionado. The full plate of his was meant for that, not war. By Henry's time, guns, pikes and heavy crossbows had supplanted the armored knight. Henry's dad, Henry (Tudor) VII, met Richard III in the last battle lead by an English monarch in the field, IIRC.
Amazingly enough, it does. Most of the articulated joints in a suit of armor have sliding rivets that allow the parts to expand and contract. otherwise, you can't move freely in them.
Heh. That's like arguing best tool in your toolbox. The most efficient blade is the one you are best trained to use and is appropriate to the situation. There is a reason Japanese blades come in a dizzying variety of length. Same goes for European blades.
See #92. You might have seen his youth set.
Finally an excuse to post the lyrics to Randy Newman's "Short People":
Short people got no reason
Short people got no reason
Short people got no reason to live.
They got little hands,
Little eyes,
They walk around tellin' great big lies.
They got little noses,
Tiny little teeth,
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet.
Well I don't want no short people
Don't want no short people
Don't want no short people 'round here.
(Short people are just the same as you and I.)
A fool such as I. (All men are brothers until the day they die.)
It's a wonderful world.
Short people got nobody
Short people got nobody
Short people got nobody to love
They got little baby legs
They stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello.
They got little cars
That go beep beep beep.
They got little voices
Goin' peep peep peep.
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds.
They're gonna get you
Every time.
Well I don't want no short people
Don't want no short people
Don't want no short people 'round here.
Re: the clothes being differently proportioned as well as smaller, my grandmother told me that when she immigrated here from Ireland, her friends over here warned her not to bring much clothing to America, because after six months, it would not fit. Sure enough, she said, after being in the US for less than half-a-year, she had to buy all new clothes.
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