Posted on 08/21/2005 6:02:36 AM PDT by CholeraJoe
"Never, ever leave home without it." No, not your American Express card, your sidearm.
This morning, I woke up about 4:15 and was hungry, so I decided to drive to the local 24-hour beanery. The only other customers were a table of 10, intoxicated 20-somethings making alot of noise.
There were 7 muscular young men and three loud-mouthed young women. After listening to their raucous laughter for 10 minutes, I politely asked the waitress to ask them to hold down the noise. All I wanted to do was eat my breakfast in relative peace.
Her request for quiet lasted about 45 seconds, then the noise and laughter resumed. At that point, I decided to do something.
Bear in mind that I am not an imposing figure. I'm 5'9", mid 50's, and slim. I walked over to the table, and walked completely around it twice. I said, "I'd like y'all to hold down the noise for a while, please." One of the young men started to give me trash-talk but within seconds was elbowed by the guy next to him, who whispered something in his ear. Then everyone at the table said, "Yes, sir, or OK."
What made the difference? Open carry. I was wearing a 9mm semi-auto on my right hip. I never touched it and I made no threats, but it was nevertheless visible.
Probably would have had the same effect.
The double circle around a table of people who are presumeably seated. Circling a target is a predatory instinct/ aggressive tactic. (Raptors, sharks, herding dogs 'circle'.)
Versus an alternative action of approaching the table, pulling up a chair, sitting briefly and then asking the group to please tone it down a little.
But then you still have to remember that restaurants are generally very noisy places and that you don't expect to find a crowd of church ladies in one at 4:30 Sunday a.m. Unless, of course, a tour bus load of senior citizens has just arrived and are trying to splain the menu options to the folks in the group who refuse to buy hearing aids.
bikerz
Probably the whole loud table only surfs DU... but who knows?
I wonder if seejay is the indian word for troll.
How about some beforethought? It's not like finding some loudies sharing a table in an otherwise empty restaurant is an occasion whose rarity is like unto winning the Powerball.
And lucky this didn't happen either:
'Scussssse me SIR, arrrr you uh cop? *hic*
(no)
PUNCH!
Except that simply walking up and politely asking a bunch of kids to keep it down is hardly intimidating. If you are so unnerved by the sight of a gun that you wet your pants, that is a personal problem that should be dealt with in your psychologist's office.
He would be most likely be terminated, and the department sued, if this had happened while in uniform.
What dream world are you living in? Cops do far worse and get off with a slap on the wrist, if even that.
Not off duty.
The dewd circled like a shark
In Michigan, at least, the showing of a firearm in an attempt to intimidate, is considered "brandishing" and will get you 90 days and a hefty fine. Class A misdemeanor.
Beside I am not sure if a police officer is ever off duty. Especially if he is on his way to, or from work, and in uniform. But then I am not a policeman, just an average citizen with a common impression that the police has a certain amount of authority to enforce the peace.
Michigan probably isn't an open carry state. Brandishing involves purposefully showing a weapon with the intent to intimidate. If the gun never leaves the holster, he never placed his hand on it and never referred to it, he wasn't brandishing.
If someone isn't mature enough to have a disagreement with someone carrying a gun without letting their imagination terrify them, they need to go finish the sixth grade.
It's precisely that sort of immature, "He's gonna shoot me!" whining that has nearly destroyed the second ammendment in the first place.
If you feel that someone else's wearing a gun restricts your preferred course of action, you are your own witness that you shouldn't be doing that.
Most cops I know make a point of not working when they are not at work, the same as anyone else.
I helped put my ex-BIL through the Police Academy.
IIRC once you are a sworn peace officer you are one 24x7x365. Even if you are "off duty" you still have to enforce the law. If you see a crime you have to attempt to stop it and apprehend the suspects. The difference is you don't go looking for crime when you are off duty.
And I also think they have to have their service weapons with or near them at all times.
I'd have just asked the server to make mine to go, and leave. If any of them followed me that's when things might have changed for the worse. Carrying a weapon is a BIG reponsibility. You are obligated to avoid confrontation if at all possible, if not possible you should act in the the proper way to neutralize the threat. Force is always a last result.
Actually, the very first vigilantes were formed on the North Carolina frontier at the Forks of the Yadkin in the 1750s, and there were vigilante groups in California in the 1850s long before Montana was first settled.
I am not sure what it is about this thread that prevents some from seeing the point. Once again, no one is saying he does not have the right to carry a weapon.
No one is claiming they "wet their pants" at the sight of a weapon.
No one says he could not have asked the group to please keep it down.
If you go back and re-read the post you will see that most are concern about CJ's judgment and the way he handled the situation. We are concerned over CJ's well being.
The concern is that he put himself in potential jeporady over what we can all concede was a minor problem.
He did not know anyone in that group, he did not know what their reaction would be, he thought that the display of his weapon would prevent them from doing anything. And in this case it worked, but he did not know it work.It is that point those that disagree with CJ's action are discussing.
It is not a big leap to play "what if" from that point to see that every outcome would be disaster for CJ.
That is where the lack of judgment comes in. He put himself in a position where almost every outcome he loses, and if it was not for the good sence of some drunk young adults, it could have turned out differently. I don't know about you, but I sure would not bet my future on the good sense of some unknown drunk young adults.
The one thing that saved him was that the members of that group for reasons we do not know, did not escalate the confrontation.
CJ's errors (in my opinion) does not include wearing a gun in public, I could not care less.
CJ's error does not include asking the waitress or when that failed asking himself for the group to quiet down.
The error comes from getting up, and approaching the group, and circling them so they could all see his weapon. (And in a purely practical sense, by getting that close to the group if their intent was hostile, he could have been overpowered before he had time to draw his weapon, but that is not main part of the discussion).
In my opinion, this now made him the aggressor in the situation, and the one responsible for whatever follows.
That is the only point of discussion here.
(1) Was CJ correct in using the display of his weapon to force a group in a public place to lower their voices?
(2) If yes, was there any risk in doing this?
(3) Was the dispute worth the price CJ would have to pay if they called his bluff, and it escalated to where he had been forced into pulling his weapon on the group?
(4)Was the dispute worth the price CJ would have to pay if he had to shoot someone?
In risk assessment the rewards need to equal or exceed the risk.
CJ put his life, his future, at risk for what? So he could enjoy a quiet breakfast. The reward was too small, and the risk were too great, which is why some of us questioned CJ’s judgment.
Have a good day I am off to work.
In fact, Michigan is an Open carry State, with some restrictions. Reading the article, someone who got up, circled the table and made sure everyone saw your firearm, is brandishing. You don't have to draw it. While we can debate "intent", I'd only say that I wouldn't want to be in court defending my intent on this one. Regards.
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