Posted on 06/10/2005 11:13:37 AM PDT by Always Right
1. The 23% sales tax rate turns 37%. A retailer who sells an item for $100 must charge his customer an additional $30 for federal sales tax. Most people familiar with state sales tax call this a 30% tax, since the tax is 30% of the seller's price. The Sales Tax folks call this a 23% tax, since $30 is 23% of the final price ($130 including tax), which they call the 'tax-inclusive' rate. Neither way is technically incorrect, it is just important to understand what is really being discussed. Remember this 30% tax-exclusive rate is only the federal portion of the tax, state sales tax will also be added in. With the elimination of federal reporting, states will have to replace their personal and corporate income receipts, with a sales tax. States collected nearly $500 Billion in 2003 through income tax and sales tax. With Personal Consumption at $7.76 Trillion in 2003, that is 6.4% in tax inclusive terms, which will add another 6.8% to the tax-exclusive rate. So if you buy $100 worth of goods, you will end of paying nearly $137 once State and Federal Sales tax.
2. Even 37% is not enough. One amazing fact when sales tax calculates their rate is that they assume 100% compliance. Everyone will cheerfully report every sale. There will be no under the table or black market sales. Also, no one will try to buy goods overseas to avoid this tax. This is pure fantasy. No one could believe any tax system will have perfect compliance and zero avoidance. The current income tax system has about a 15% tax-evasion rate. Conservatively, we could assume that the sales tax will have a similar tax evasion rate of 15% and a tax avoidance (like spending overseas) rate of 5%. With these more realistic assumptions, the tax rate would have to be bumped up to 44% to be revenue neutral. And these are very conservative assumption. Brookings Institute economist William Gale (National Retail Sales Tax, September, 2004) calculated that about a 60 percent sales tax would be required to be revenue neutral.
3. Fraudulent Calculations. Besides using ridiculous assumptions like 100% compliance, the sales tax economists create money out of thin air. Their paid for economists routinely double-count savings of their plan. The biggest one is being the $1.3 Trillion that individuals pay in taxes. Under the 30% Sales Tax bill, that money would end up in the pocket of individuals, and the proponents correctly tell you that take home pay will go up. But then the Sales Tax proponents go on to tell you that prices will go 25-33% to offset their 30% sales tax. Well if individuals are pocketing 67% of the taxes that are eliminated, how are businesses going to reduce prices very much? The sales tax eliminates about $650 Billion in taxes to businesses. Considering Americans consumers spend $8 Trillion on goods and services, that only allows for businesses to lower their costs by 8%. Once the 30% sales tax is added, the final end cost to the consumer will be 20% higher if the calculation were done honestly. Even allowing for a reasonable amount of savings in compliance costs to businesses under the sales tax system, prices would still shoot up 18-19%.
4. Millions must file. The Sales Tax supporters would have you believe that only retailers need to file under the Sales Tax. That simply is not true. In order to offer the 'low' 30% rate, the Sales Tax must tax services too. 'In 1993, 12,778,000 taxpayers filed individual returns with business income or losses, and another 1,919,000 filed farm returns. In addition, in 1992 the IRS received returns for 17,292,286 non-farm sole proprietorship businesses, 1,484,752 partnerships, and 3,868,004 corporations-all of which probably produced goods or services on which the sales tax would be levied. Thus the supposed simplicity of the sales tax turns out to be a mirage.' (Brookings Institution Policy Brief #31-March 1998) Thus over 35 million filers will still be subjected to reporting and audits, most of these are individuals. This doesn't even consider the 100 million of people who will still have their wages reported to the SSA. Also, all households must register every year with the 'sales tax administering authority' in order to receive your monthly tax rebate. Furthermore, individuals that buy things without sales tax, like overseas purchases, must submit monthly forms and payments to the government. Hardly the zero tax filings for individuals as the sales tax supporters claim.
5. Tax Evasion will skyrocket. 20 countries have tried a national sales tax, and 20 have switched to a value-added tax. These countries have gone on record and have flat out stated a retail tax of more then 12% is unworkable. People will avoid it, especially with the internet which makes it very easy for the common citizen to purchase goods from foreign sources. The fact that businesses to business sales are not taxed, makes it very tempting to buy personal stuff under a business name. It will take a mighty powerful and intrusive taxing authority to audit all business expensive to make sure. The sales tax rates we are talking about have never been successfully implemented in the history of the world, but it hasn't been for a lack of trying. "Many people would masquerade as businesses" to avoid the tax, says Robert Hall, an economist at the Hoover Institution. Gale reckons that evasion would be far higher than today 's estimated 15%.
6. Big Government gets Bigger. In the 20 countries where the national sales tax has been implemented, and in each case replaced by necessity by a Value-Added Tax, the amount of federal taxes quickly grew from about 20% of GDP, as currently in the US, to 40% and above of their GDP. Not a promising precedent.
7. Underground Economy still not taxed. The NRST advocates falsely claim that the underground economy now will be taxed. Nothing could be further then the truth. Sure, when the money re-enters the legal economy the money is taxed, but that is true today. But will the drug dealers and prostitutes remit sales tax for their goods and services under the NRST? Absolutely not, this portion of the economy is still invisible to the tax collector and therefore not taxed. According to Bruce Bartlett, 'thus whatever revenue is gained when drug dealers spend their ill-gotten gains will be lost because no tax was collected on their drug sales.' (Bruce R. Bartlett, senior fellow, National Center for Policy, Analysis, November 5, 1997).
8. Lower and Middle Income pay more. Steven Sheffrin of UC Davis in a 1996 CPS brief says that a revue-neutral consumption tax even with a generous personal exemption shifts the tax burden to the lower to middle income households. A 1992 Congressional Budget Office study of consumption based tax concluded the consumption tax would decrease the tax on the wealthiest 20% by five percent, while hitting all other groups with a higher tax burden. The poorest quintile being hit the hardest with a 20% increase in tax and the 20-40% income quintile being hit with 9.3% increase in their effective tax rate. This is because the poorest spend a much higher percentage of their income each year and in many cases are even forced to borrow to keep up with their expenses. These numbers are much worst today as the federal tax liability for the bottom 20% has been greatly reduced through expansion of the earned income tax credit.
9. Elderly assets are unfairly burdened. While people currently working will get to keep more of their paycheck, people on fixed incomes will stay the same. Elderly, who have already worked and saved under the income tax system, will now be faced with paying additional high consumption taxes. This group of especially hard hit people, will not have the opportunity to earn tax-free wages, so all their already taxed wealth will be taxed again when they spend it. Come January 1, 2007, if someone's rent was $1000, they will owe an additional $300 in federal tax alone, and many without any additional source of income.
10. Government Taxes Itself. One amazing thing is under the Sale Tax is that government somehow raises money by taxing itself. Whereas this is an interesting way to reduce government, it is typical of the smoke and mirrors the fraudulent analysis of the so-called fair taxers use. Under the plan, the government is considered the consumer and most of it's purchases and employee salaries are taxable. So if the state of Alabama pays its clerk $30,000 in salary, it would be liable to pay the federal sales tax of $9000. The same applies to the federal government, but it pays itself. An interesting way to raise revenue, but it more fraud on their part. If government could truely tax itself, why not just put 100% sales tax on government and then no one else would have to pay taxes.
11. Auto and Housing Industry Hit Hard. As the luxury taxes have proven in the past, adding a large sales tax on item deters people from buying. In 1991, after the Democrats snuckered Bush Sr. into signing the Luxury Tax, Yacht retailers reported a 77 percent drop in sales that year, while boat builders estimated layoffs at 25,000. And that was only for a 10% tax! With new homes and autos having to compete against existing homes and used cars, paying the additional 30% sales tax will be hard to swallow for most consumers.
How about "The fair tax rate presumes the same amount of evasion as the income tax"...
You suggest I said a billionaire never earned his money. Nowhere did I say that.
If your idea of a clever debating tool is saying I said something I never did, then go play with yourself. I just won't debate with a liar and a fool.
No, he asked what you meant when you said, "What did you mean about useless billionaires and their heirs?"
Your post connotes class envy - badray was asking for clarification. Can you clarify? Without clarification, the class envy connotation paints you as a class warrior.
Without answering and simply calling the questioner a liar and fool makes you one.
"Follow the money. The people who will make out HUGE are the billionaires and their useless heirs. I am not impressed. And I will call anyone who peddles this scam as a way to reduce the tax burden of the average working family a baldfaced liar."
228 posted on 06/10/2005 4:29:56 PM EDT by Fido969 (I see Red People!)
I am just trying to clarify that. You made a sweeping statement that I read as dripping with class envy. I asked if that was what you meant. 'Yes' or 'no' would have settled it. Instead, I got your resume.
Talk about old debating techniques -- acting elitist while decrying them. Topped with insults instead of answers. Maybe you should consider reading comprehension classes and a 'Miss Manners' or Dale Carnegie course to dress up your resume. ( o )
Do you still take home a paycheck? Do you have a bank acount or investments?
If so, follow your believe that it's the government's money and sent it in to them. Live off of what they decide is enough. Live off welfare and food stamps. Otherwise, you are just another moralistic sounding, but lying and hypocritical liberal.
Government has usurped much of the charitable function of the church and the individual, but it is a miserable failure and in many cases denies the individual the ability to be charitable as God commands. COMMANDS, not implies.
Aah. Gotcha. Now I understand what I didn't in the middle of the night.
Thanks for clarifying that for me.
YN -- I said that he could have been wrong and I apologized. I take it back. His statement is entirely correct and you were wrong. It really bothered me to think that you were finally right on something.
Do you always call people things like that the minute you realize they don't agree with you? What a fine Freeper.
YN -- I said that he could have been wrong and I apologized. I take it back. His statement is entirely correct and you were wrong. It really bothered me to think that you were finally right on something.And if every business is removing the supposed embedded taxes and lowering prices by but keeping the same margin, how is one particular business suppose to gain market share?
Corrected: And if every business is removing the supposed embedded taxes and lowering prices but keeping the same margin, how is one particular business suppose to gain market share?
One of us is a mopron, but it is not me - nor most on this thread. You not only speak with a fork-ed tongue, but out of all 6 sides of your mouth at once as well.
Your "point" in this post is that the IT factors in the evasion whereas in an earlier post on this thread where you said it did not. In fact you can't show any source that claims this (since it isn't true) and the FairTax handles evasion the same way as the IT ... by ignoring it.
No one "gets it", nightie, because it isn't true.
If the IT DID "factor in" evasion as you claim, its rates would be greatly higher than they are right now as well. You were also challenged on these points earlier and failed the challenge miserably siince you could show nothing to demonstrate the IT "factored in" evasion.
You're merely back to the old liberal/Brookings/Gale stunt of trying to inflate the rate requirement of the FairTax - and you've failed miserably again.
Your "facts" change frequently one notes and only to suit the argument du jour.
You're ONE of those from the left, nightie - that's the meaning of that. You merely wish to pretend it isn't the case.
If every business does it, we'd be right back into the competitive market we have today.
One of us is a mopron, but it is not me - nor most on this thread.Is "mopron" a bad word in hillbilly?
Your ignorance is truly stunning ... "thot" is the past participle of "thunk".
Gheeze! This DoDo bird can't even unnerstan English. (To save you looking it up, DoDo, the DoDo you're patterened after is an extinct, flightless creature from Mauritius.). You'll soon be extinct too when the FairTax becomes the tax law of the land but at least the DoDo - extinct by Civil War time - is still remembered while you won't be.
He'd "find it hard to understand" what anyone is saying who doesn't agree with him merely as a tactic of attempted denigration ... or maybe he really is that dense!
Not to worry, Badray. It'll be a cold day in hell when nightie is right about anything except by accident.
So, Mr. Manners, exactly where did I say that billionaires didn't earn their money?
Exactly what I said.
No - it's a descriptive phrase to give you something useful to do instead of lying on these thread all the time.
It means you're a "mopron". The "p" stands for pissant. That's a hillbilly contraction which is the same as saying "you're a moron pissant". Us'ns don't like to use too many words with you libs so's you don't get TOO confused.
I know you are - but what am I?
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