Posted on 06/01/2005 9:24:53 AM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
You can document this, of course?
Is separation of church and state prescribed by the United States Consitution or not?
The best thing to do is be selective, but not overly so, when establishing a cirriculum. Besides, how do you know the earth is not hollow? Did you come from down there, or did someone who's never been down there tell you about it?
I see no such implication. In fact, the Madison quote is quite clearly stated to be an observation, and therefore no reasonable person would infer it was in the Constitution.
Of course. This is a nice piece, from one of my favorite conservative writers.
Correction. The Constitution states that Congress shall not establish a Federal Religion. It also states that it cannot meddle with State action on the subject. In other words, although I do not advocate it, the Founders were perfectly tolerant of the idea of a State Church--and there were such at the time.
See Leftwing Word Games & The First Amendment.
William Flax
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
That depends how you define "separation of church and state". If you mean public funds can't be used to advocate particular religious beliefs, then yes. If you mean that people aren't allowed to advocate their own religious beliefs in a public forum, then the principle goes blatantly against what the Constitution says. Both halves of the clause need to be respected.
Is separation of church and state prescribed by the United States Consitution or not?
Yes. 'Separation' is in effect directed [prescribed] in three different places. --
States are directed to have republican forms of governments, [no theocracies allowed].
- No religious tests for office are to be allowed.
Nor are laws to be made that respect any of the establishments [teachings/precepts] of religion.
Too bad that so many people simply can't accept these simple principles inherent in our Constitution. -- Freedom of religion, & and freedom from religion are of equal concern.
If a school teacher places the 10 commandments on the wall... congress has made no law respecting an establishment of religion
If the congress or the courts (by legislating from the bench) declare that a teacher can't place the 10 commandments on the wall.. then the government has prohibited the free exercise thereof.
seems pretty cut and dry to me
only a liberal with an agenda could see it otherwise.
Thomas Jefferson coined the phrase in a letter to the Danbury Baptists, as I recall. Religion - the institutional denominational church structure - should be kept separate from government. God, however, should not and cannot be kept out of government.
I suspect that, in those days, most people were more anxious to keep government out of the church than church out of the government.
It can hardly be argued today, given the use of the constant use of the phrase in political discourse, that "separation of church and state" is regarded by the general public as a constitutional provision put in place by our Founders.
Funny how the Articles of Confederation, Constitution & Declaration of Independence all fail to explicitly mention this. The available historical citations of the era just don't back this assertion.
Not every Founding Father was a Christian (Jefferson & Franklin were self-proclaimed Deists). The religious views of the Founding Fathers were as varied as religion itself.
"All sober inquirers after truth, ancient and modern, pagan and Christian, have declared that the happiness of man, as well as his dignity, consists in virtue. Confucius, Zo- roaster, Socrates, Mahomet, not to mention authorities really sacred, have agreed in this.
If there is a form of government, then, whose principle and foundation is virtue, will not every sober man acknowledge it better calculated to promote the general happiness than any other form?" -John Adams Thoughts on Government 1776
It is clearly implied that the phrase is in the First Amendment, along with the familiar phrases "freedom of religion", "freedom of speech", and "freedom of the press." The less familiar "free exercise" clause is what is referred to, but the more familiar "separation of church and state" clause replaces it.
No argument from me there. If the teacher starts using paid salary time in class to preach them, though, I think they've crossed a line. (I'm not backing any draconian measures should it happen; but it is inappropriate.)
A voluntary Bible study on their own time after school is a different story, though; the federal/Supreme courts have repeatedly upheld that viewpoint, if I'm not mistaken.
Oops - where I wrote "free exercise clause", I should have written "establishment clause" - that's the clause they revised.
> do you know the earth is not hollow?
Science and logic. Seismic and sonar studies have shown it to be quite solid/liquid apart from some surface-level caves.
"The academy has been under investigation because of complaints that evangelical Christians have harassed cadets who do not share their faith, in violation of the constitutional separation of church and state."
Ummm, can you see it now?
So you merely believe what those studies have preached to you. Why not dig a big hole and find out if it's really true? It may be inconvenient, but unless you do so you are only believing what other people have told you.
Now you're moving the goalposts. We were discussing whether people claim the constitution literally contains the words 'separation of church and state'. Of course it doesn't, and nobody has come up with a quotation where anyone said it did. Now you're discussing whether it entails the idea of a separation of church and state. People differ over that.
...leaving one to believe either the words of multiple reputable sources or intricate, open-ended and unfalsifiable conspiracy "theories" implying an impressively successful suppression of the truth throughout history. I'll give you, if you actually put much stock in the latter, there's really no use in trying to get an education at all. (Interesting train of thought, though...)
Hehe. Everything you've ever been told has been a conspiracy to make you believe you exist. Is it working?
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