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Jefferson/Madison/Franklin Hated God ! ?
none | may 26 2005 | Vanity post

Posted on 05/29/2005 3:58:59 PM PDT by Para-Ord.45

Having a go round with an atheist who flung this at me.

Can anyone expound on the overall context and meaning ?

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

" man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: benjaminfranklin; ezrastiles; foundingfathers; thomasjefferson; yale; yaleuniversity
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To: Haru Hara Haruko

I'm not making judgements about it, I just wish to know the plain facts. I think these groups are as active as ever, though completely non-transparent.

I guess I'm jealous of them too.

121 posted on 05/29/2005 6:50:55 PM PDT by SteveMcKing
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
That's what the revisionists mean by most.

Everyone who believes what is revealed to them is a revisionist.

Skepticism and doubt leads to faith.
122 posted on 05/29/2005 7:03:53 PM PDT by clyde asbury (Exhuming McCarthy)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

Oh, nice tagline you have there. ;^)

Keep on studying, and asking questions, LLB. I've a feeling you'll go far.

123 posted on 05/29/2005 7:09:19 PM PDT by jla
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To: LS; LauraleeBraswell asked me to write something on faith and the founders.

I'll be looking out for it. I'm sure it'll be informative.

LLB...Another fyi here.

124 posted on 05/29/2005 7:12:12 PM PDT by jla
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To: Para-Ord.45


125 posted on 05/29/2005 7:14:09 PM PDT by chaosagent (It's all right to be crazy. Just don't let it drive you nuts.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Wonderful listing of quotes. Thanks for posting.

126 posted on 05/29/2005 7:22:27 PM PDT by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: StonyBurk
Was he required by law to attend the christian worship that met in the Capitol every Sunday ?

I'm not sure whether you're ranting or asking a question. As a young man in Colonial Williamsburg, ThJ was required by law to attend Church on Sunday morning. Even the Jew (forget his name now) who lived in Williamsburg had to, and did, attend.


127 posted on 05/29/2005 8:50:37 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: clyde asbury
Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists.

No, most were Christians.

128 posted on 05/29/2005 8:53:16 PM PDT by Hacksaw (Real men don't buy their firewood.)
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To: Para-Ord.45

"In terms of population alone, a high percentage of the pre-revolutionary
American colonies were of Puritan-Calvinist background. There were around
three million persons in the thirteen original colonies by 1776, and
perhaps as many as two-thirds of these came from some kind of Calvinist or
Puritan connection" (Douglas F. Kelly, The Emergence of Liberty in the
Modern World — (Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R Publishing, 1992), p. 120.

"The U.S. Constitution is a Calvinist's document through and through."

And because of that, they made sure that in America, one man’s liberty will
not depend upon another man’s (religious) conscience (as in Europe)!

Dr. George Bancroft, arguably the most prominent American historian of the
19th century — and not a Calvinist — stated:

"He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows
but little of he origen of American liberty"

The 55 Framers (from North to South):

John Langdon, Congregationalist (Calvinist)
Nicholas Gilman, Congregationalist (Calvinist)
Elbridge Gerry, Episcoplian (Calvinist)
Rufus King, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
Caleb Strong, Congregationalist (Calvinist)
Nathaniel Gorham, Congregationalist (Calvinist)
Roger Sherman, Congregationalist (Calvinist)
William Samuel Johnson, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
Oliver Ellsworth, Congregationalist (Calvinist)
Alexander Hamilton, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
John Lansing, Dutch Reformed (Calvinist)
Robert Yates, Dutch Reformed (Calvinist)
William Patterson, Presbyterian (Calvinist)
William Livingston, Presbyterian (Calvinist)
Jonathan Dayton, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
David Brearly, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
William Churchill Houston, Presbyterian (Calvinist)
Benjamin Franklin, Christian in his youth, Deist in later years, then back
to his Puritan background in his old age (his June 28, 1787 prayer at the
Constitutional Convention was from no "Deist")
Robert Morris, Episcopalian, (Calvinist)
James Wilson, probably a Deist
Gouverneur Morris, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
Thomas Mifflin, Lutheran (Calvinist-lite)
George Clymer, Quaker turned Episcopalian (Calvinist)
Thomas FitzSimmons, Roman Catholic
Jared Ingersoll, Presbyterian (Calvinist)
John Dickinson, Quaker turned Episcopalian (Calvinist)
George Read, Episcopalian, (Calvinist)
Richard Bassett, Methodist
Gunning Bedford, Presbyterian (Calvinist)
Jacob Broom, Lutheran
Luther Martin, Episcopalian, (Calvinist)
Daniel Carroll, Roman Catholic
John Francis Mercer, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
James McHenry, Presbyterian (Calvinist)
Daniel of St Thomas Jennifer, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
George Washington, Episcopalian (Calvinist; no, he was not a deist)
James Madison, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
George Mason, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
Edmund Jennings Randolph, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
James Blair, Jr., Episcopalian (Calvinist)
James McClung, ?
George Wythe, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
William Richardson Davie, Presbyterian (Calvinist)
Hugh Williamson, Presbyterian, possibly later became a Deist
William Blount, Presbyterian (Calvinist)
Alexander Martin, Presbyterian/Episcopalian (Calvinist)
Richard Dobbs Spaight, Jr., Episcopalian (Calvinist)
John Rutledge, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, III, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
Abraham Baldwin, Congregationalist (Calvinist)
William Leigh Pierce, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
William Houstoun, Episcopalian (Calvinist)
William Few, Methodist

[Caveat: Most of the mainline churches listed above have apostatized and today are unrecognizable by comparison to what they were at the founding of this country.]

America's Unchristian Beginnings?

129 posted on 05/29/2005 9:23:44 PM PDT by Matchett-PI (Ignorance is curable but stupid is forever.)
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To: RedRover; Para-Ord.45
"One has to go to the source .."

The American Colonist's Library - A Treasury of Primary Documents

Primary Source Documents Pertaining to Early American History An invaluable collection of historical works which contributed to the formation of American politics, culture, and ideals -- a massive collection of the literature and documents which were most relevant to the colonists' lives in America. If it isn't here, it probably is not available online anywhere.

130 posted on 05/29/2005 9:31:58 PM PDT by Matchett-PI (Ignorance is curable but stupid is forever.)
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To: jwalsh07
Franklin edited it... he changed some of Jefferson's wording... such as, "We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable." Franklin changed it to "self-evident"... things like that...

i've gathered that though Franklin declined invitations to write The Declaration of Independence, he joined the drafting committee and did become Jefferson's major editor... but i do suppose that i could be wrong... in any case, both Franklin and Jefferson both possessed remarkable minds...

131 posted on 05/29/2005 9:41:12 PM PDT by latina4dubya
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To: Para-Ord.45
From Benjamin Franklin: "That there is one God, Father of the universe. That He is infinitely good, powerful and wise. That He is omnipresent. That He ought to be worshipped, by adoration prayer and thanksgiving both in public and private."
132 posted on 05/29/2005 10:04:03 PM PDT by latina4dubya
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To: Para-Ord.45
I found this relating to Benjamin Franklin in my archives:

In the summer of 1787, delegates to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia had been in bitter debate for ten long weeks. Tempers flared over heated issues between the northern and southern states. As tensions rose, some delegates threatened to pull out of the convention altogether, leaving the fledgling nation without a strong constitution.

When it looked like no one would ever be able to agree, the elder statesman of group took charge. 81 year-old Benjamin Franklin stood to his feet. And although he was not known to be devoutly religious, he gave this contentious gathering a stirring call for prayer.

"I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? ... I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the builders of Babel … Therefore, I beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this assembly every morning..."

133 posted on 05/29/2005 10:05:58 PM PDT by latina4dubya
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To: StonyBurk

Washington's prayer book is a fraud and was exposed as such from the very first day it was published. It is a standard Episcopalian prayer book from the day, and is not in Washingtons handwriting.

134 posted on 05/30/2005 12:08:51 AM PDT by mugs99
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To: Abby4116
According to Christ Church, Philadelphia, history of the church

Yeah, Wasington prayed/ate/slept everywhere back there!
Washington did not worship, he believed in "providence" like all Deists...That is a fact of history. Believe what you want, it changes nothing. As far as old Ben Franklin goes, I don't think Christians would have welcomed him into a church. At least not the Christians of today...He was a hedonist.
135 posted on 05/30/2005 12:19:24 AM PDT by mugs99
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Gooooooaaaaaaaalllllllllllllll !

136 posted on 05/30/2005 12:30:52 AM PDT by america-rules
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To: silent_jonny
Jefferson was a big whoremonger who was confused because he laid down with many women not his wife in France and even his slaves.

He was confused like a gay person in 2005 but erred on the side of a believer ?

137 posted on 05/30/2005 12:37:02 AM PDT by america-rules
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To: Matchett-PI

Dr. Bancroft's list is interesting and has been posted on FR more than once. Where is the historical documentation to back it up? Listing people by parish and probaby were because they were buried in this or that cemetary does not prove or disprove what faith they were, if any. Speeches made to quell anger and/or gain cooperation are political even if they have a religious tone.

They weren't God haters, and it doesn't really matter if they were Deist, Christian, Hebrew or Atheist.

138 posted on 05/30/2005 12:45:54 AM PDT by mugs99
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To: mugs99

My sources say otherwise-but I will check it out. It may well prove to be like that Treaty with Tripoli the Infidels and Atheists love to cite as authoratative but is proven fraud.

139 posted on 05/30/2005 3:43:30 AM PDT by StonyBurk
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To: mugs99

Do recall Rev. Witherspoon used the term"providence "quite
frequently are we to suppose that by use of the term "providence" one is automatically a deist? Sounds rather gay to me.

140 posted on 05/30/2005 3:49:41 AM PDT by StonyBurk
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