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Jefferson/Madison/Franklin Hated God ! ?
none | may 26 2005 | Vanity post

Posted on 05/29/2005 3:58:59 PM PDT by Para-Ord.45

Having a go round with an atheist who flung this at me.

Can anyone expound on the overall context and meaning ?

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

" man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: benjaminfranklin; ezrastiles; foundingfathers; thomasjefferson; yale; yaleuniversity
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To: LauraleeBraswell

Speculation.Many -if not most were active members -some were even leaders in their local church. M.E.Bradford documented the religious affiliation of many of the Founders Franklin was a Deist ,who was burried in a church
cemetary,and who declared he was "never far" from the teachings of the church .James Wilson was an Epsicopalian
that became a Desit. Hugh Williamson was a Presbyterian who may have become Deist--Only James McClung Seemed have
no record of Church membership.Unless they are here to question it is a fools dive to claim one knows if they were Deist of Christian. But Franklin said Deism was basically a novelty that didn't catch onin America any more than being an Atheist or an indfidel.

101 posted on 05/29/2005 5:23:54 PM PDT by StonyBurk
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To: rmmcdaniell

Sure but it went right over your head. The Constitution is part of the Supreme Law of the Land, not "the Supreme Law of the Land". Comprende'?

102 posted on 05/29/2005 5:23:56 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: anniegetyourgun
Define "most" please. As in a majority?

He means three of members who signed the DOI were deists. That's what the revisionists mean by most.

103 posted on 05/29/2005 5:26:21 PM PDT by Rightwing Conspiratr1 (Lock-n-load!)
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To: rmmcdaniell

amended to be read the Clear and unambiguous language used and the intent of the men who wrote and ratified the instrument(the US Constitution)

104 posted on 05/29/2005 5:31:00 PM PDT by StonyBurk
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To: jwalsh07
The Constitution is part of the Supreme Law of the Land, not "the Supreme Law of the Land". Comprende'?

The laws and treaties must be made in accordance to the constitution, so it is supreme in that the other two parts are subject to it and not the other way around.

105 posted on 05/29/2005 5:31:48 PM PDT by rmmcdaniell
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To: EagleWarrior76
Well, I would do what I do with all unconstitutional rulings, ignore them.

Massachusetts just said I couldn't allow smoking in my private business. Since it is my property, I consider that unconstitutional. I know that there are law and order types on FR and I am one of them but I am not bound by any law which is illegal under the Constitution itself.

As far as breaking the First Amendment, the only folks I see doing this are the ACLU types. The government can no more suppress religion than they can impose it.

Let's look at Europe in a few years and see how they like Sharia. I don't think we are heading down that path.

The Christian extremists do things like object to the removal of religious symbols from our currency, government buildings and in the Pledge of Allegiance.

I guess that makes me a Christian Extremist even though I am not a Christian, LOL!

Arioch7 out.

106 posted on 05/29/2005 5:32:06 PM PDT by Arioch7
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine
You must elaborate on these tricks...

OK, here's the rest of the Jefferson quote:
" preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other."
107 posted on 05/29/2005 5:32:54 PM PDT by clyde asbury (Exhuming McCarthy)
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To: ml/nj

Was he required by law to attend the christian worship that met in the Capitol every Sunday ? Was he requirwed by law
to ask the Marine Corps band to provide musical accompanyment?I see norecord of any protest by Jefferson to theuse of Federal Buildings for Christian sevices in Washington D.C. And I understand tha the requested the Bible and Watts hymnal be required taught from in every classroom.

108 posted on 05/29/2005 5:36:34 PM PDT by StonyBurk
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To: rmmcdaniell; jwalsh07
rmmcdaniell wrote:

The Constitution IS the supreme law of the USA.


I didn't think so. But I'd think if you were gonna embrace the Constitution, which I think is a goos thing, you'd become familiar with it. Read Article 6, Clause 2.
88 jwalsh07


Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Do you have a point?
93 rmmcdaniell

The usual observation made by one of FR's 'states rights' crowd is that somehow our States are not obligated to support the individual rights outlined in the Constitution/BOR's.

- Apparently jwalsh07 forgot to include that one in his pointless post at 88.
109 posted on 05/29/2005 5:39:04 PM PDT by P_A_I
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To: clyde asbury
"Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists."

"Some" not "many"

110 posted on 05/29/2005 5:40:21 PM PDT by cookcounty ("We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the Courts" ---Abe Lincoln, 1858.)
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To: LauraleeBraswell


111 posted on 05/29/2005 5:44:01 PM PDT by UB355
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Excellent Quotes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

112 posted on 05/29/2005 5:44:18 PM PDT by DoctorMichael (The Fourth Estate is a Fifth Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: mugs99

In reading the General Orders issued by Washington of 9July1776,and May 2,1778 (to name two ) Washington did not
hope and trust ever officer and man would be Deist soldiers,
but "Christian Soldiers."and did not enjoin them to laud the more distinguished character of Deist (but did proclaim "to the distinguished Character of Patriot ,it should be our highest Glory to laud the more perfect Character of Christian." Washingotn's Prayer Book and his
letters do not suggest he was a Deist.

113 posted on 05/29/2005 5:46:32 PM PDT by StonyBurk
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To: cookcounty
"Some" not "many"

OK, thanks, cc. Others have made sure I got that point tonight.
114 posted on 05/29/2005 5:47:27 PM PDT by clyde asbury (Exhuming McCarthy)
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To: mugs99
George Washington never stepped inside the church. He took his wife to church on Sundays and remained in the carriage while she attended services.

"Those who worshiped regularly at Christ Church include George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Betsy Ross, Robert Morris, Absalom Jones, Benjamin Rush, John Penn (William Penn's grandson), Francis Hopkinson and many others."

According to Christ Church, Philadelphia, history of the church.

115 posted on 05/29/2005 5:57:12 PM PDT by Abby4116
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To: Para-Ord.45

IMHO, I think any person who is honest with themselves would come to say the same things in about the same manner.

As a matter of fact, one needs only to read the "Book of Revelation" in "The Bible", and you will find what Christ thought about some of these very churches.

Remember this line, "Druken with the Blood of the Saints".

116 posted on 05/29/2005 6:03:40 PM PDT by stockpirate (Kerry & Democrats; supported, financed, trained, guided, revered, in favor of, Communists.)
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To: RedTail
I was referring to the afterlife part. Deists by definition don't claim to know what happens after you die, but it has to be good, since God must benevolent.
117 posted on 05/29/2005 6:26:07 PM PDT by Hugin
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To: mewzilla

Thanks. BTW, since I wrote that, asked me to write something on faith and the founders. It should appear any day, so you might check. I found much more stuff on the Founders and God than we could put in the book.

118 posted on 05/29/2005 6:43:33 PM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: Para-Ord.45
This is the same Franklin who STOPPED the constitutional convention at a difficult moment to PRAY; the same man who said "we can never forget God." Jefferson created a special Bible for the Indians that was just the Gospels.

You might want to see my column on that is running either this week or next on Faith and the FOunders.

119 posted on 05/29/2005 6:45:38 PM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news)
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To: SteveMcKing
Makes my head spin with conspiracy and secret societies.

Why should it. They were critical of churches and of blind faith. Who would blame them? It is a very ignorant view of history to think that free people in the 18th c. did not take their intellectual freedom very seriously.

In the current age of political correctness we dare not say certain things anymore. There is nothing conspiratorial about the Founders' variable adherence to what we think of as normal Christian doctrine.

120 posted on 05/29/2005 6:47:11 PM PDT by Haru Hara Haruko
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