Putin criticizes Allies for Dresden bombing

MSNBC ^ | May 5, 2005

[TFine80]

BERLIN - Russian President Vladimir Putin told a German newspaper that Allied forces can’t be absolved of blame for horrors during World War II, and he noted in particular the massive bombing of Dresden in the final months.

Ahead of this weekend’s 60-year commemoration of Victory in Europe Day, Putin, in a joint interview with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, told Bild that the Western forces deserved to be criticized for attacking civilians.

“The Western allies didn’t abound with any special humanity,” the Russian leader said. “It’s incomprehensible to me to this day why Dresden was destroyed. There was no military reason for it.”

[johnny7]

To Comrade Putin I say... yes... but war is war... my diminutive Russian friend. And by-the-way...

KISS MY ASS YOU COMMUNIST SONOFABITCH!

[FreedomPoster]

So you maintain that it was widely known that the Soviets would kill these people when repatriated? Do you have a source for that, or do you expect us to just unquestioningly buy that?

[johnny7]

“Another somewhat important factor to observe- it's entirely unfair and irrational to ask Putin to explain massacres caused by a legendary tyrant, let alone one from an earlier political system.”

Phew.

[Red6]

:)

Yea, but from their perspective you MUST show that we acted the same. If we all did the same things then they were not bad. Then they just lost the war.

That's why they try to bring up the Indians, the Japanese Americans and so on. The logic that follows is "We all do this kind of stuff, so what we killed 6 MILIION Jews?" By trying to tear others into the mud pit with them they attempt to wash their hands free of this nasty past.

Thanks for the link. I didn't know about the background and purpose of the Dresden bombing.

Red6

[uscabjd]

excellent thoughts. thanks

[A Jovial Cad]

"Wouldn't want you to read Free Republic without learning something, eh?"

Just occured to me: "eh?"

...of course.

Welcome to FR.

[PzGr43]

>>PzGr43 wrote:
>>"Criminality depends upon intention, not on action. Dresden was a war
>>crime because civilians were targeted via the Allied fire-storm policy.
>>This is documented . . . By your reasoning Ward-Churchill is correct."
>

>...such lie documented only by neo-Nazis and the ignorant. Show us
>where it is alleged that the USA intended to inflict the Dresden
>bombing against civilians and not against military production
>and transportation.
>

familyop wrote: "Show us where it is alleged that the USA intended to inflict"

I will make reference to 'the Allied bombing campaign' as the RAF and USAAF did different things on different days.

The RAF's, or rather Butcher Harris's policy, was to create firestorms. All that is documented. What is not so well known was the intentions of the USAAF to create indiscriminate firestorms:


"Incendiary bombs started fires which spread particularly in thickly inhabited parts of town in a very short period of time...
The heat increased rapidly and produced a wind which soon was of the power and strength of a typhoon. The typhoon first moved into the direction of the fires, later spreading in all directions...
The firestorm looked like a blizzard of red snow flakes...The heat turned whole city blocks into a flaming hell."

From: Horatio Bond. _Fire and the Air War_. Boston: Nat. Fire Protection Ass. International, 1946.

Bond was an official of the US National Fire Protection Ass., who, like many of his colleagues during the war, consulted with the US air forces on the best way to create large fires in enemy



>As for Ward Churchill, he projects his
>neo-Nazism upon those he hates, just as all Nazis do. He's
>a neo-Nazi who calls his opponents Nazis. It's common
>knowledge that Nazis share more with the contemporary
>left in their hysterical hatred against Israel than
>with any other group.
>

I am afraid psycho-babble is a language I do not speak, and so will have to leave you with this.


>Why can't you get over the defeat of your Nazi despots of
>the past? Nazism is weak. Just let it go.
>

What has mass-murder-by-firestorm being a war crime got to do with who won the war ?

[PzGr43]

>If you change your mind and want to see the truth about the Dresden military targets
>(instead of Nazi propaganda), go to the following site.
>
>https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/
>

The RAF and USAAF alternated with what their targets might be on any one day. The Dresden firestorm was the responsibility of the RAF on this occasion.

Official histories such as the above are very useful but tend to gloss-over the massacre of civilians and use euphemisms such as "aim and enemy morale" and "sow confusion" instead of "slaughter civilians".

The USAAF bombed rail yards in Dresden the day after the night of the firestorm, but they made up for not being in on the slaughter of civilians by ordering their fighter-bombers to straf the fleeing refugees.

Dresden Bombing guide summary:

http://www.ww2guide.com/west.shtml#dresden


>And BTW, the Nazi decision to build so many weapons production and other
>military production facilities within a city like Dresden was telling-
>-reminiscent of Saddam Hussein's and Iran's human shields programs.
>

Please post a tabulation of the industrial facilities in Dresden together with their dates of construction, and in addition, the documentation of the minutes where 'the Nazis' decided on a policy of building those factories within Dresden for the reason that you have stated.

Do you seriously think for one moment that 'the Nazis' imagined that the Allies would fail to bomb any target in Germany for any reason, let alone something as flimsy as the proximity of sites of historic or cultural importance ?

Dresden did not contain much industry, which is why it was still relative intact at this time. However, the RAF did not aim at this industry. Their aim was to firestorm the city and slaughter all the civilians.


"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed... I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives ... rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive."


said by Winston Churchill 03-28-1945, memo to Chiefs of Staff Committee

[familyop]

PzGr43 wrote:
" The USAAF bombed rail yards in Dresden the day after the night of the firestorm, but they made up for not being in on the slaughter of civilians by ordering their fighter-bombers to straf the fleeing refugees."

We don't need the neo-Nazi and communist lies about Dresden. We are aware that the anti-American Dresden canards are only perpetuated by neo-Nazis and communists. The following are rebuttals of the neo-Nazi lies. Another rebuttal follows.

"Dresden strafing myth is shot down"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/251208/posts

"The dilemma of Dresden" [Military historian debunks the neo-Nazi canard about Dresden with sources.]

[familyop]

Air Force Historical Studies Office

HISTORICAL ANALYSIS OF THE 14-15 FEBRUARY 1945
BOMBINGS OF DRESDEN

Prepared by:
USAF Historical Division
Research Studies Institute
Air University

https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm

[familyop]

"The RAF and USAAF alternated with what their targets might be on any one day. The Dresden firestorm was the responsibility of the RAF on this occasion."

It was the responsibility of the German people at the time. They were Nazis. They built the iron railways and other iron equipment that had to be destroyed with the inaccurate incendiary bombs of that time.

[asgromo]

Oh jeez, if nothing else, you are very funny. You certainly write to please.

[NY Attitude]

One must not forget the logistical support that the "civilian population" provided by working at the German Defense factories, giving comfort and aid to the German soldiers, etc. Those "civilians" should have been considered as part of Hitlers war machine. It unfortunate that many died during the bombings of Dresden but the Allied Commanders deemed it necessary.

[asgromo]

familyop, you sound like what most people in the armed forces would refer to as a "Section 8".

Firstly; Guess what, you've cited that Air Force Historical Studies Office website a landmark five times in this thread. I think everyone writing coherent posts here has read it by now (you clearly don't land in that generalization). I myself am tired of it. You've not yet even bothered to uselessly defend its objectivity (though I doubt anything written there is an actual nontruth). There are terms for this that lawyers use... I'd say it fits "argumentum ad nauseum" quite nicely. xD

You expound on your suspicions that anyone who puts a negative view on the action at hand is a neo-Nazi. You do it over and over again. What's up with that? It's so thoroughly random and unfounded. I think those of us in the psychology world call it "totally baked". Actually it sounds like an example of argumentum ad Nazium, too.

Why are you directing your recent replies to the moderator? Do you hope he agrees about the "Nazis" and bans people?

Anyway, I'll make a simple suggestion that you stop talking now, because I think it's making you look funny. In a lot of ways. Do whatever you will.

[familyop]

You, by perpetuating the neo-Nazi lie about Dresden and falsely accusing the USA of a war crime against the Nazis during WWII, are a neo-Nazi.

You've seen the credible evidence to the contrary and in defense of the USA on the matter, and you choose to support what is on so many neo-Nazi sites. Take your anti-American lies elsewhere.

[TomasUSMC]

If we would have done to Tehran and Damascus on 9/12 what we did to Dresden, we would have finished this thing up by 9/13.

Let there be no doubt that if the Muslims Terrorists had the capability the would Dresdenize as many American cities as possible.

[familyop]

"familyop, you sound like what most people in the armed forces would refer to as a 'Section 8'."

By that comment, you have shown your lack of knowledge on military matters and too much indulgence in fictional films. ...same with your ignorance or denial regarding the purpose of incendiary devices.

[asgromo]

You, by perpetuating the neo-Nazi lie about Dresden and falsely accusing the USA of a war crime against the Nazis during WWII, are a neo-Nazi.

You must be confusing me with someone else- I never accused the USA of a war crime. I don't know if at the time anyone could consider it criminal. Mongol raids weren't "criminal", were they? Regardless, I consider it a completely immoral act.

You've seen the credible evidence to the contrary and in defense of the USA on the matter, and you choose to support what is on so many neo-Nazi sites. Take your anti-American lies elsewhere.

I don't know what I said that got you so angry, but whatever it was it's clearly influenced some kind of drunken rage in which you've lost any reasoning ability you may have ever had. You speak as if there was only a good and an evil to every issue. I can play that game just fine, too. You see, I'm not supporting neo-Nazi sites. Your fanatical ranting is supporting websites like Vanguard News Network: racist forums for all the most ignorant of humanity to gather and talk about how their lives have been ruined by "non-Whites". You're clearly just like them because you're from America, and you are a xenophobe. And I gauge from your name that you place importance on the family. Making you just like them. Clearly.

By that comment, you have shown your lack of knowledge on military matters and too much indulgence in fictional films. ...same with your ignorance or denial regarding the purpose of incendiary devices.

Anyway thanks for sharing with me your every interpretation of my posts. I'm now humbled by the ever-subtle ways with which you've blasted my cheap and ignorant insults out of the water. As for the purpose of incendiary devices, I'm going to pull another assumption out of eevil Hellywood and say that I'm pretty sure they're used for blowing stuff up. Now with any luck I won't have the local Latin student telling me "argumentum ad Nazium" doesn't mean anything...

Anyway, if I'm a Nazi, then you, dear friend, are clearly a Klansman.

[Paul_Denton]

Talk about a hypocrite. Condamns civilians killed by our bombs while Stalin intentionally murdered MILLIONS of his own people.

[familyop]

"You must be confusing me with someone else- I never accused the USA of a war crime.

And as is typical with your part in the neo-Nazi propaganda effort, you're not very honest.

In comment #24, you wrote:
"The only "military reason" for the firebombing was to destroy German morale. . . .So yeah, I think we did mean to kill civilians just fine."

In comment #72, you wrote:
"What do you mean the "Nazi decision"? Those are commercial enterprises, not government installations." [As you described your perception of war-related businesses in WII Nazi Germany.]

And you jumped in to defend the neo-Nazi comments of your friend with your comment #114.