Posted on 04/26/2005 8:07:37 PM PDT by neverdem
MIAMI, April 26 - Gov. Jeb Bush signed a bill on Tuesday giving Florida citizens more leeway to use deadly force in their homes and in public, a move that gun-control groups and several urban police chiefs warned would give rise to needless deaths.
The measure, known as the "stand your ground bill," lets people use guns or other deadly force to defend themselves in public places without first trying to escape.
Floridians already had the right to defend themselves against home intruders under what is known as the castle doctrine, but until now, they could not do so in public.
The National Rifle Association lobbied hard for the bill's passage, and Wayne LaPierre, the group's executive vice president, said it would use the victory to push for similar measures elsewhere. The bill's sponsor, Representative Dennis K. Baxley of Ocala, said it would curb violent crime and make citizens feel safer.
"It's a clear position that we will stand with victims of violent attacks when the law is in their favor," said Mr. Baxley, a Republican who has sponsored several socially conservative bills this legislative session, including an effort to keep the brain-damaged Terri Schiavo alive. "People want to know we stand on the side of victims of crime instead of the side of criminals."
Governor Bush, a Republican, said he supported the measure because when people faced life-threatening situations, "to have to retreat and put yourself in a very precarious position defies common sense."
But John F. Timoney, Miami's police chief, called the bill unnecessary and dangerous. Chief Timoney, who has successfully pushed his police officers to use less deadly force, said many people, including children, could become innocent victims. The bill could make gun owners, including drivers with road rage or drunken sports fans who get into fights leaving ball games, assume they have "total immunity," he said.
"Whether it's trick-or-treaters or kids playing in the yard of someone who doesn't want them there or some drunk guy stumbling into the wrong house," Chief Timoney said, "you're encouraging people to possibly use deadly physical force where it shouldn't be used."
He added, "I don't think it's been thought out enough."
Chief Chuck Harmon of the St. Petersburg police and Sheriff Ken Jenne of Broward County also publicly opposed the bill. The Florida House of Representatives voted 94 to 20 in favor of the bill earlier this month, while the Senate, usually less conservative, passed it 39 to 0.
The measure codifies in state law what many courts have already ruled in Florida: that a citizen need not try to escape an intruder in his home or workplace before using deadly force in self-defense.
The measure also goes a step further, allowing "a person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be" to use deadly force without first trying to flee.
Florida was among the first states to allow people to carry concealed firearms, and Sarah Brady, chairwoman of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a national gun-control group, said she was not surprised that the N.R.A. lobbied for the new law here first. Mrs. Brady said that she had not even been aware of the measure before it passed, but that she would now rally opposition to similar bills in other states.
"The populace in Florida is very much common sense and on our side," Mrs. Brady said, "but the State Legislature is very conservative and the N.R.A. has control of them. I'm just sick. It's just a terrible, terrible bill."
Mrs. Brady, whose husband, James, was seriously injured in the 1981 assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan, said that while the Florida measure was disheartening, other states were taking a different stance. On Monday, Gov. Janet Napolitano of Arizona, a Democrat, vetoed a bill that would have let people carry loaded guns into bars.
Still, Mrs. Brady conceded, "we are going to have to get busy and fight."
Mr. LaPierre of the N.R.A. said his group would introduce the bill in every state, and he predicted it would win broad national support.
"We will start with red and move to blue," he said of the states. "In terms of passing it, it is downhill rather than uphill because of all the public support."
Terry Aguayo contributed reporting from Miami for this article.
I think that the our uniqueness here in Florida is that it was one of the first to craft shall issue legislation in that if no disqualifying factors are uncovered (and there are some strict standards) within 90 days, the state SHALL (must) issue the permit. I think (IIRC) that other states have more leeway in saying no.
I've had a CCW permit in the states of Florida (since 1987 and still current), Alabama and Washington. In Alabama the sheriff in Tuscaloosa came outside the station, looked me over, I paid my $5 and was issued the permit on the spot. Maybe it was actually $15 for a 3yr permit in 1979. In the State of Washington, my military ID got me the permit. $25 for 3 yrs in 1981.
Twenty years ago, I'd have agreed with you 100%. Unfortunately, today those cops are all standing in the line to retire! Todays cops are (think about this) mostly all products of the public school system. Our soldiers, too. That corrupt system Of EDJAMACATION (I've been a high school teacher for sixteen years, I know) has been infested by the liberals since the 1960's and getting worse every year. The public schools universally push one agenda: GUNS ARE EVIL and anybody who either owns or wants to own a gun must be evil as well! The terrible by-product of this is that the protectors of society are incompetent gun handlers and they have attitudes that are so PC that they'll get killed in many standard tactical situations.
The proof is in the firing range qualification standards and the incontrovertible fact that most cops cannot shoot. The exceptions being of course SWAT, narcotics and special squads like warrants and gangs. Sidearm qualifications have been changed over the years to PASS/FAIL rather than scores. Why? Because the departments all know how terrible their guys are at shooting and that even good training can't overcome the brainwashing that's taken place over a 12-16 year period. A terrible shot that is a police officer is just one long line of lawsuits waiting to form with every miss and subsequent strike of an innocent bystander. The shoot qualification scores are going to be plaintiffs exhibit #1.
Tactics and armament have changed as well. Like the difference between the US Army and the USMC where excellent skill at arms is mandatory versus the spray and pray mentality of the army. Cops have been switching to the high capacity 9mm for decades. Why? Less recoil and greater magazine capacity. Spray and Pray all over again. Used to be six rounds of .357 medicine solved nearly all problems unless you missed. Well, out of 15 rds of 9mm, about 90% are misses these days. Sometimes, even 9mm hits can be disregarded until hydraulic loss (bleed out and expiration of life signs) takes effect, because dynamic hits are not being achieved by the shooter with a badge.
Gee, you mean I don't have to wait to get shot in the back before I can defend myself? /Sarcasm
"Shall issue" legislation is indeed a very good thing -- I agree with you. But I'm sorry to tell you that Indiana has had this since the 1930's, and I'm sure that's true in a couple of other states also. I'm glad Florida finally got around to following our lead, even if the state is 50-60 years late!
I can't let this get by without at least a question or two. I assume that you are considering TX a "johnny-come-lately state" in this matter. No argument about that. But TX has some of the most stringent licensing requirements in the nation. I have not checked to see if we are reciprocal with Indiana, but why do you claim that your laws are "far superior" to ours?
(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
I agree 100% with your post but I thought that you would appreciate some additional insight:
I just completed my concealed handgun training class here in TX and there was a range qualification that was pass/fail. The instructor said that the reason that the exams were pass/fail was that if they were scored a person with an expert score could be confronted with this in a criminal or civil case and be expected to make every shot dead-on in a stressful life or death situation. For example, you could be asked why you didn't just shoot the gun out of the hand of the now deceased perp instead of shooting for center body mass and killing him. I know that it sounds rediculous, but with the liberal judicial oligarchy that we have in our country you can never be too cautious. The same reasoning may apply for cops today.
My grandfather from 1985 until the day he died would tell anyone that would listen that John Hinckly shot the wrong brady
Also, and the main thrust of that last post: Cops are still by and large (especially in the large metropolitan areas) anti-gun in their attitudes....thanks to the public schools. What really frightens me is the fact that this indoctrination has now extended itself to the military. I was always certain that if the gubmint turned on us and demanded our guns be confiscated, that we might be able to count on the military to turn and support the Constitution. But...they're NOT taught the Constitution anymore and if they are the 2nd Amendment is the national guard! We're cooked.
I seriously doubt that the rank and file believe this...its the Chiefs appointed by "inner-city" left wing zealots that give voice to police departments...not the cop on the beat..... The assistant Chiefs have future asperations and therefor puppet the party line.......
The burbs and rurals know that the innocent citizen must have the right of self defense "anywhere".....
Onward and upward: And now it is time at the state level to start pushing for an upgrade from "shall issue" to Vermont/Alaska carry. I'd like to see posting #14's map start accumulating more of the "unrestricted" light green.
Well, I'm reluctant to get into an argument about state pride with someone from Texas! Texans have plenty of state pride, I realize.
Nevertheless, I do have some reasons for saying that the laws in Indiana are among the best. Permits here are easy to get, and plentiful. And there are only a few off-limit places for carry. And we honor all permits from any other state or country, no questions asked.
If you believe that good people should have freedom to carry (because it's our right, and because it makes life hard for the bad guys), then I think you'll agree that Indiana has one of the best laws in the country. Only Vermont and Alaska are clearly better, IMHO. And I hope that the states with "stringent" laws will, in time, see that it's not necessary to be so stringent.
Just go over to www.packing.org. It's a wonderful site with tons of information that's very well organized.
I have to ask: Don't you think the bill should be more specific about the circumstances?
Remember that incident with the man shooting the exchange student who knocked on his door mistakenly? And I can think of a couple other such incidents. Those people "thought" they were in danger. Does this bill extend that "right" to the street without punishing them if they're mistaken?
Just looking for further explanation here. Thx.
Police chiefs in big city departments are so far removed from actual "police work" that it is a crime for those polidiots with badges to make any statement, pro or con IMO with regards to public safety.
Besides it's laughable for these professional nuthuggers who carry a gun everyday tell others they don't need or can't possess a firearm.............phucm.
No argument there. There is a bright side though which is that they teach so much crap it is inevitable that what was learned soon conflicts with reality.
Police chiefs are just ass kissing politician wannabees scrambling for TV face time.
Assuming of course, that the individual now graduating with a public school education knows reality when he encounters it and doesn't just pass it off as another alternate universe. When I graduated from the public schools in 1975, things weren't nearly this bad.
Yay! It's open season on trick-or-treaters, according to the stuffed shirts with badges.
Buncha idiots...
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