Condi "Mildly Pro-Choice"

http://www.drudgereport.com ^ | 3-11-2005 | Matt Drudge

[Protagoras]

But the more I visit these threads, the more I've changed my mind about the entire situation.

It's probably time for you to visit other websites, not just threads. DU should do nicely. Perhaps Moveon.org as well.

And when you go over there among your co-supporters, be sure to toss all that Christianity stuff around there as well. They have the same grasp on it that you do.

[FreedomCalls]

The subject is murder, if you have a question about murder, ask it. This thread isn't about the war, which I would be happy to discuss with you on any appropriate thread. Feel free to ping me to the next one you see. My position on murder is consistent, I can assure you.

No, "murder" is simply your label on certain types of killing. Lots of Michael Moore types also label the killing of innocent Iraqis as "murder" as well. I (and presumably you) don't accept them placing that label on Iraqi killings. They could just as easily dismiss any discussion of it in just as flippant a way as you did on the abortion question. It seems your opposition to abortion for rape and incest is based on your reaction to the deliberate killing of an innocent. But you must accept the deliberate killing of an innocent in Iraq (deliberate as in we deliberately choose to conduct this operation). I don't see a consistency there. Some of us accept the killing of an unborn child in the first trimester for victims of rape if the mother/victim so desires as an unfortunate side effect of the mitigation of the crime of rape, just as we accept the killing of innocent Iraqi children as the unfortunate side effect of the elimination of the Ba'athist tyranny. I feel bad for both of their deaths and wish we didn't have to make that choice, but life is not so simple sometimes.

[Irish Rose]

"The life of the unborn is important, but so is the life of the living and born."

Is there anyone on this forum who disagrees? The point, Peach, is that the life of the unborn is as valuable as the life of the living-and-born. In this one year, more unborn children will be killed by abortion than all who have ever been killed by terrorism. In view of this, isn't it sensible to say that abortion is a more important issue than terrorism?

[MarIboro]

LOL! I posted to howlin last night and within 5 minutes he had cut and pasted it to a thread there. Howlin told me he would. The guy is disturbed. Why does he hate this site so much, other than just being nuts.

[Protagoras]

I hope it made you feel better to say it.

Murder is not a matter of opinion Torie. There is no "position" on murdering babies. Some are for it, they are wrong.

And if you think talking straight on a website like this "poisons the public square", it may be time for you to consider if infanticide "poisons" society, and which is more important.

[Dan from Michigan]

Tiny baby survives despite being born four months early

I made at after almost three months early, and that was back in the 70's.

[Protagoras]

I would respond to your post,,if it deserved it.

Murder and killing are different things. Murdering a child because of the circumstances of it's conception is wrong. Everywhere and always.

God made these children. They were chosen before they were born. Evil exists. Anyone who murders these children is evil. Anyone who condones it is likewise evil. Everywhere and always.

[TAdams8591]

Funny. I went through the same thing with my father and had a reaction entirely opposite from yours.

[Ronaldus Magnus]

The only concept to which abortion (or more appropriately stated, the ending of pregnancy) may be even considered a right for a woman is in regards to self-defense

Self-defense may be a natural right, but only in response to another life being in direct and immanent threat of dying in an otherwise unforeseen way.

... and that concept extends to ending a rape pregnancy or that of a minor child.

No it doesn't. Murdering the child of a rapist for a father's sins is no more justified than enslaving your child now for you great-great-grandfather's ownership of slaves (just guessing about your ancestry merely for the sake of the argument). The only thing such an abortion would accomplish is to make a victim of rape into a murderer of her own child.

BUT, and this the vital corollary, such ending of a pregnancy must be done earliest possible date in the lifetime already begun.

The inviolability of innocent human life is not dependent upon age. The moral culpability is identical if the human "lifetime has already begun."

[Protagoras]

I haven't seen anyone here advocate abortion.

You have.

[jwalsh07]

You're analogy fails miserably. Yes, innocent people are killed in war. If it is done deliberately, it is murder. Abortion is always a deliberate act and the fact of the matter is that the overwhelming number of abortions are a personal "choice", not a medical necessity or because the woman was raped or the baby was incestual.

[Cold Heat]

I totally agree Torie.

The public square is getting a severe workout.

This may well turn into a even more divisive dispute then it is now.

The party majority has tolerated quite a lot from the so called religious right on several issues. They may not be so willing to do it much longer if they feel threatened by over zealous advocacy.

Franky, I have felt that way for years.

Your point is well made, and well taken.

[jwalsh07]

The party majority is pro life.

[streetpreacher]

I agree. Is it wrong to be a SINGLE issue voter on abortion? I submit that once the lines of demarcation are blurred on this one issue, it will be "Katie bar the door" on all of the others.

If we as a party or a movement can justify compromise on the issue of the sanctity of life and the constitutional God-given right thereof, then we will have revealed that the conservative movement no longer even exists and will have no qualms about selling other principles to the highest bidder or the latest Gallup poll.

When the foundation is removed, the whole edifice crumbles.

I can remember when protecting the American border, abolishing the Department of Education (in order to keep education at the local level and away from the bureaucrats) and cutting entitlement programs were conservative positions. Now they are all considered extreme, intolerant and even "un-Christian" (in the words of my own Republican governor who wants to extend entitlements as "rights" to illegals). We have already become the party of “compassionate” (re: big government) conservatism. Remove the right to life and other moral issues and there isn’t much else to separate us from the opposition. Maybe we could just call off elections all together and agree to share power and swap Presidents and leadership positions every four years.

[section9]

Most Republicans consider themselves "pro-life", but don't approach it with the sense of fanatical zeal that our friend Protagoras does. He has his reasons, I suppose. All True Believers will insist that Deviationists are Evil. How and ever, what you will see is a return to Reaganism, especially if Rice should run, as I am now certain she will.

Reagan understood that he was about the business of growing a political party, not salvation. People forget that the Human Life Amendment was not designed to pass Congress, as it was controlled by Democrats. Rice, it seems, is endorsing choice with restrictions while looking to get the federal government out of the business of approving/disapproving of abortion. Implicit therin is the notion of a return to the States.

That's the way I read it, but she has yet to amplify. Certainly, however, her position is acceptable to me. BTW, I exhaled when I saw that she was against Partial Birth. That would have been a deal killer.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[hocndoc]

My friend has two children, born at 31 and 32 weeks by induction - but not abortion - due to toxemia of pregnancy.

If a mother must have therapy for cancer such as chemo or radiation, I'm not quite sure that an abortion is necessary past the first trimester. If the mother is at risk of kidney disease or bleeding, then, perhaps an abortion in the first half of pregnancy or an induction in the last half. The effects and stress - the actual stuff she goes through is the same. But, the need for an intentional death of the child is very, very rare.

I can't imagine a reason for an abortion rather than induction, unless the prejudice is that the child should be killed for some reason. That prejudice is common in the medical field, so you often hear of abortions due to a "fetal anomaly not compatible with life." That translates into the wish for a dead child.

[Trinity_Tx]

I'm blaming it on the only 2 hours sleep you had, too.


(If you got a good nap in today, don't tell me, lol)

[Torie]

We still have not quite fully defined that, "pro life." I would assert that if my views and yours were laid out before GOP voters, that the division would be rather even. Of course, in my state of California, I would "win" going away. :) What we need to do for the moment, is ban third trimester abotions, absent a demonstrable physical threat to the material health of the mother, and make that a crime. We need to involve parents in the decision, absent a court order otherwise, that involving them would result in material physical or mental abuse of the minor. We need to overturn Roe v Wade and beyond that, its toxic and based on my a priori beliefs, its more toxic progeny. That is what the GOP needs to do now. On that, the party can be largely united.

[Howlin]

Your posts make your own nickname on your home page a flat out lie:

Protagoras was known as the "father of debate" because he taught that there are two sides to every issue.

You should hang your head for the things you have said on this forum tonight.

[Cold Heat]

The party majority is pro life.

Perhaps, but they are not single issue advocates. For those of you in Rio Linda, that means they will consider a candidate that does not have a either or view, or place a different priority on the matter. A view that is attacked by people with blinders on.

As evidence, I present this thread and many others.