Posted on 03/01/2005 7:09:47 PM PST by Rakkasan1
Sue Rockne was a fighter.
At the Minnesota state Capitol, she fought for women's rights, abortion access and safety for battered women. As a Democratic activist, she fought for and with the party and served as a 12-year Democratic National Committee member and five-time delegate to the Democratic National Convention.
And for 13 years she fought leukemia, a cancer that kills many of its victims quickly. She challenged it with the aid of a little red scooter that zoomed her around the Capitol halls and helped her travel across all seven continents in the past decade.
On Saturday, she succumbed to complications from the disease. She was 70.
"She went fast, which is a blessing for her," said her daughter, Lauri Rockne of St. Paul.
(Excerpt) Read more at twincities.com ...
Of course Lauri loved and respected her mother. After all, poor Lauri knows she must have come damn close to being culled from the Rockne herd....not to mention how many of her siblings her own mother might have killed.
God bless you for writing this.
That's where you're wrong. It's you folks who do the killing. We leave decisions about life to God. Vengeance is not mine.
How ironic it would be if the slide toward the culture of death resulted in your demise before you wanted it, because someone else had decided against your view that you were not enjoying a sufficient quality of life.
What strikes me in the quality of life argument is the notion that whatever human experience comes out of a lesser situation will be, of necessity, inferior to that which comes out of a better endowed one.
History, as well as my personal experience has taught me not to expect the best from those most priveleged, but rather from those who have faced the most adversity and overcome.
On a personal note, as the father of two adopted children, I thank God daily for their lives, despite the fact that they have not been always the easiest of times. For someone to suggest that they (or I) might have been better off if I or their birthmothers had sought a better "quality of life" for ourselves is anathema.
A very heartening thing to read. Thanks and God bless you.
Well said.
You are redefining terms. The vast majority of people do not define the unborn as a baby. Until you come into this world and have a "birth day", you are not independently experiencing this human environment.
LIFE put women in charge of determining whether or not they will give birth.
How about the cases where giving birth would very likely cause the death of the mother, would you advocate that outcome?
I disagree that human death is the most consequential thing we humans experience. Everyone dies, it is not optional. Everyone does not have the possibility of giving birth. If the human experiences are prevented from beginning, that is quite different than dying when you are an adult parent with other family members dependent upon you, which is different than dying when you are old and no longer able to function.
Consider the possibility that NO ONE can take life from you. Life is from God and is eternal. What we are talking about here is human experience, human life, which is only a very limited and flawed manifestation of God's gift. Our mission, should we choose to accept it, is to live a human life with as much quality and progress as possible. One of the most important elements in that process is freedom. It may be that sometimes one person's freedom comes at the expense of another. That is what makes this human experience formidable, there are many conflicts, complex situations and difficult decisions. But, human life is not the "be all" and "end all". Every mating does not result in a conception, every conception does not result in a birth, every birth does not result in a complete life, every human life is not successful. There is more to life than we can possibly imagine in this human condition.
Choosing an abortion does not necessarily bring a better "quality of life". Having the FREEDOM to decide this issue for one's self is what pertains most to quality of life. Freely choosing to give birth would most likely lead to better quality of life for everyone concerned which seems to be the case in your example.
"No, I don't believe abortion is murder."
Then you have the analytical skills of a two-year old. When exactly do you think life begins? It is most certainly murder, and allowing someone to have an abortion is allowing murder.
Another idiotic "point" you made involved not bringing children into an unloving, cruel world. Why don't we just kill all the kids who are already in that situation? They'd be better off.
"It may be that sometimes one person's freedom comes at the expense of another. "
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER YOUR FREEDOM COMES AT THE EXPENSE OF MINE.
I have answered that question more than once in other posts on this thread; you might try using your reading skills before getting all worked up. I will answer that question again, however. I think life is eternal - never beginning and never ending. This human experience is just one of infinite possibilities to manifest God's gift of life. Whether or not we enter or leave this human experience at a particular time and circumstance does not alter our status as the offspring of God. Therefore, I believe that quality of life is more important than quantity of life. We are here to learn and progress towards the spiritual reality of God's creation. One of the most important elements of that process is FREEDOM. That means the freedom to make wrong or detrimental decisions as well as good ones. Abortion is most often the wrong decision - but maybe not always. Consider the situation where giving birth would most likely result in the death of the mother. Is an unborn, potential human more valuable than a mature, responsible adult with a family dependent upon her? There is a case to be made that allowing the mother to die is closer to murder than taking action to prevent that outcome. But, neither case is murder.
If you truly believe that a woman deciding not to take a pregnancy to term is murder, what are you doing to remedy this crime? Are you prepared to fight a civil war over this issue (because that is likely what it would take). Can you imagine the consequence of that action?
Why don't we just kill all the kids who are already in that situation? They'd be better off.
There is clearly a significant difference between the environment in a woman's womb and the environment into which all human beings have been born. Different considerations apply. It is, of course, not acceptable to kill children in unfortunate conditions (although many do suffer and die because the world does not pay attention). It is also not acceptable to a great many for you or the government to assume the duty of determining what happens in the wombs of women.
Please read all my other posts regarding this issue before emotionally responding in an insulting manner.
Any relation to Knute Rockne?
OK I apologize for my insulting tone.
Oddly enough, I agree with nearly everything you wrote, including the boundless property of life and the purpose of coming to earth to learn through experience. However, that very point is why you would be horribly wrong to condone the choice of abortion. If a soul chooses to "come down" to gain certain experience, then the soul which would have been born into poverty or addicted to drugs can no longer learn through that experience. Maybe the entire goal of that particular human life is to experience oppression and overcome it, which is denied when the child is aborted. At any rate, you admitted that the human life exists in the womb, so abortion is the murder of that person the same as murder of a one-month old. If the mother's life is threatened, then that is a self-defense issue which shouldn't be confused with murder. Likewise if a girl is raped, and will suffer irreparable mental damage by being forced to carry the child, then self-defense again becomes an issue.
As to your last point, I am willing to do everything in my power to eradicate this infanticide. One day it will be just a stain on American history next to slavery, and we will be shocked at how primitive we once were.
Yep.
you would be horribly wrong to condone the choice of abortion.
I am NOT condoning the choice of abortion (with a few exceptions). What I am arguing for is just the freedom of choice for the person who experiences the 9 months of carrying a potential human being, the birthing process and the consequences thereafter. Life is comprised of many elements and FREEDOM is one of the most important.
Maybe the entire goal of that particular human life is to experience oppression and overcome it, which is denied when the child is aborted.
That may be true, but is it a permanent denial or just a temporary denial? We can't know for sure but I believe that whatever we need for our progress towards God's truth will inevitably come to pass.
abortion is the murder of that person the same as murder of a one-month old.
I do not agree. A child which has been born is quite different than a potential child which exists within the environment of a woman's body. A child born breaths the same air we breath. A child born is developing in the same environment in which we exist. There is a very significant difference there. Also, the vast majority of abortions occur early in the jestation process - there is virtually no awareness of life in that circumstance. A one-month old child is most certainly aware of life.
I am willing to do everything in my power to eradicate this infanticide.
Infanticide pertains to already born infants. There is plenty of infanticide occurring in this world to be concerned about. And there are plenty of things which can and should be done to eradicate that infanticide. It may be that the most important thing we can do is focus on those individuals who are already in this world and leave the decisions about who arrives here to God and the women through whom that process proceeds.
My mother's decision to give birth to me was NOT given by the government, it was HER decison. And the fact is that we ARE having this discussion partly because of her choice.
That sounds a lot like I don't believe in murder, robbery, rape etc. fill in the blanks, but I would never impose my values on anyone else.
It must be wonderful to be able to rationalize so easily.
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