But .. a "graven" image is something that is carved with a chisel - not an imprint on a cloth.
I don't know if it's the image of Jesus or not. I don't need that to believe in Jesus. HE lives in my heart and HE's very real to me.
Jesus said, "Blessed are those who believe and have not seen".
If you search the scriptures, (cf. John 5:39), you will find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!
There are many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).
David gave Solomon the plan "for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."
During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).
One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.
(Isa 50:6 KJV) I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
(Isa 53:2 KJV) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Those are the only two verses that I know of that discuss anything about what Jesus looked like.
He had a beard, and he was not handsome.
"There are tons of verses on this in the Bible - that is if what HE says matters to you. It's most unlikely that He would allow a graven image on HIMSELF to be left behind when He is so opposed to it"
Here's some news; the Iconoclast heresy was crushed finally in 843. The First Sunday in Great Lent is called the Sunday of Orthodoxy and commemorates the restoration of the icons to Churches and homes.
You are absolutely correct. If God had left any archeological remnants of Biblical persons or events, men would turn them into idols.
This is why it is totally unprofitable and undesireable to search for them or even engage in discussion about them.
But then, some seem to need holy relics and aids to worship in order to feel something or other about God.
Pity them...
If the image is that of Jesus (I don't know if it is or is not), I would not consider it an image created by man.
It doesn't seem to be graven... nor does it seem to be made by human means... what if GOD made it?
Why do you wrap your arguement in the old testament when Jesus came to make a new and everlasting covenant?
I don't think that the shroud qualifies as a 'graven image'.....and I'm not even properly a Christian.
You Amish guys make really good raisin bread. I need to take a trip up to Lancaster to get some more.
Your post pretty much nails my position on this. That a person that professes to be Christian would even concern themself about the shroud or speculation on Jesus' appearance implies a "Christian" that is out of touch with the message of the very Christ they profess to follow.
Don't get me wrong, I have my problems as well...
Do you have a passport? A drivers liscense? Must be there are graven images of yourself out there - photographs. What evil Eastman Kodak has foisted upon us all! A pox on them! And we just accept it.
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. John 14:8-9
A graven image...?
Using forensic techniques, they have studied the various injuries found on the body that is imaged on the shroud. Using the Bible, they compared these images to the wounds described in the account of Jesus's suffering, and crucifixion, and found that they likely matched.
As for 'graven images', what is wrong with looking at a picture or a statue that reminds us of Jesus or his Mother or one of the Saints, if that leads us to a more fruitful life of prayer? Sometimes people need something visual or tactile to focus their prayer; to keep their minds from wandering, which we're all tempted to sometimes while in prayer. The 'graven image' in scriptures is condemned because it took the peoples' focus OFF of God, and His saving graces.
graven image
n.
An idol or fetish carved in wood or stone. Umm... the shroud ain't what you are speaking of.