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How to talk to an atheist (and you must)
Townhall.com ^ | January 24, 2005 | Mike S. Adams

Posted on 01/26/2005 9:46:21 AM PST by 7thson

When I pulled into the parking lot this morning, I saw a car covered with sacrilegious bumper stickers. It seemed obvious to me that the owner was craving attention. I’m sure he was also seeking to elicit anger from people of faith. The anger helps the atheist to justify his atheism. And, all too often, the atheist gets exactly what he is looking for.

(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: atheist; christian; christianity; convertordie; cslewis; god; jesuschrist; mikesadams; religion; wrongforum
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To: missyme; MineralMan; Stone Mountain
Yes I guess there will be many people like you and Mineral Man that will be DUST IN THE WIND. Forgotten about forever...

Missy, I swore that I was never going to engage you in discussion again after the last maddening experience, but I cannot let that remark go by. How dare you say such a thing? You have just decided that these people's lives have no meaning and that they have had no impact on the world around them because they don't believe in God.

If they have children, they will live on through their children and the love that they gave to them. If they have spouses, they will live on in the memories of the one left behind. If they've given time or money to a charitable organization, they will live on in the good that they did for someone else.

What you said was hateful and cruel and I don't believe for a second that Jesus would praise you for it.

581 posted on 01/27/2005 11:16:59 AM PST by SilentServiceCPOWife (Romeo&Juliet, Troilus&Crisedye, Bogey&Bacall, Gable&Lombard, Brigitte&Flav)
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To: 7thson

Just yesterday I was shocked when I saw for the first time Calvin of 'Calvin and Hobbes' pissing on a cross. At the very next light I saw the second one I've ever seen. Why don't they just put a big sticker saying "We deserved 9-11!" That probably wouldn't even anger as many people.


582 posted on 01/27/2005 11:19:09 AM PST by Flightdeck (Liberals see Saddam's mass graves as half full. I prefer to see them as half empty.)
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To: betty boop

> my understanding is this marvel was accomplished by using a living molecular base for some super-added components.


http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_02/polio_create.shtml

"To create the virus, the researchers first assembled single nucleotide bases into DNA based on the virus' known genetic sequence. An enzyme then transcribed the DNA into the single-stranded RNA genome. The virus could then replicate itself naturally."

And from:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-11-13-new-life-usat_x.htm
"But the questions ethicists have raised about such work are numerous: Should we be playing God?"

Somebody has to!

(2 points to whoever gets the reference...)


583 posted on 01/27/2005 11:24:44 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: missyme

Actually... dust in the wind is a misnomer. My body will be broken down into basic components, spread into the soil and water table surrounding my "final resting place," make their way into growing flora and fauna, where little bits of me will help make life continue. Just like all of my ancestors, and the bodies of your ancestors, and the bodies of every living thing that has ever died.

But on the other hand maybe your point of view explains all the dust in my apartment...


584 posted on 01/27/2005 11:27:48 AM PST by Renderofveils (8th Engineer Bn, 1 Cav. "Cannibals!")
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To: Stone Mountain

I can appreciate the gap. Truly.

I have absolutely no issue with weak atheists and with agnostics. None. Doubt exists - perfect. I have doubt too. Without it, I'd either be certifiable, or a prophet. Either one is bad. Prophets have hard jobs.

Strong atheists tend to be more militant, and more activists, while at the same time maintaining this surety that is not logically supportable. I wouldn't have an issue with strong atheists either if they weren't trying to undermine the some of the stronger traditions upon which the US was founded.

I am fascinated by agnostics, when you can get them to talk about it.


585 posted on 01/27/2005 11:28:40 AM PST by RinaseaofDs (The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.)
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To: SilentServiceCPOWife

"Missy, I swore that I was never going to engage you in discussion again after the last maddening experience, but I cannot let that remark go by. How dare you say such a thing? You have just decided that these people's lives have no meaning and that they have had no impact on the world around them because they don't believe in God.

If they have children, they will live on through their children and the love that they gave to them. If they have spouses, they will live on in the memories of the one left behind. If they've given time or money to a charitable organization, they will live on in the good that they did for someone else."




Thanks for that. Still, it's OK if missyme feels that way. She can't "decide" anything about me or anyone else.

The way she feels is the way a lot of what I call "baby Christians" feel. They often have recently come to a belief in Christianity, but have little information beyond what is on the surface about what that means.

They have little Biblical knowledge, nor have they learned the lessons recorded in the Gospels about how to treat others they may encounter in their lives.

Many "baby Christians" grow in their faith and learn what Christianity is all about. They stop doing such things then. I can't get angry at them...they're just acting on an imperfectly-formed faith.

I don't know that missyme is a "baby Christian," but it's a possibility.


586 posted on 01/27/2005 11:29:35 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: betty boop
Thank you oh so very much for all of your excellent insight and especially for the encouragements!

I often wonder about the psychology of atheism, what motivates it, and what atheists hope to achieve/obtain from it. I guess in the end, atheists somehow believe that God is dangerous in some way to their personal well-being (however understood). But this strikes me as being an absolute inversion of natural truth. Still, inverted truth seems to have many champions these days. I wouldn't know how else to explain a Michael Newdow, a Richard Lewontin, a Noam Chomsky, et al., than that they are "inverted" (unnatural) people, trying to invert the world into a "more pleasing shape." (E.g., as much unlike the one God "shaped" as possible.... FWIW

Indeed, so very true and well said!

I've had a tendency over the years to view atheists by three types: the ordinary atheist who doesn't believe but doesn't mind if you do, the pondering atheist who wants to present his reasoning (as if always reevaluating his own thoughts) and the evangelical atheist who insists that nobody else ought believe in God. IMHO, the Newdow's and Lewontin's are evangelical - using every power at their disposal to influence others.

587 posted on 01/27/2005 11:30:36 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MineralMan

Two questions for you, if I may. Have you ever believed? If so, what made you stop?


588 posted on 01/27/2005 11:30:41 AM PST by PleaseNoMore
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To: MineralMan; Stone Mountain
MineralMan: If my hypothetical bumper sticker said: "There is no God...damn it!" you'd feel justified in using force to stop me from saying that?

Public blasphemy or other public insult is a violation of rights unless the receiver of the message had consented to it. It would be fine in an environment which one enters knowingly, such as this forum. It is not fine on the public square if it violates the decency norm. Your comment is mild enough so it is not violative, and in fact the public square in the United States has deteriorated to such extent that it is hard to imagine anything to be below the pale. Nevertheless if some punk on the street, for example, yells at people that their wifes are ugly sluts and their children are cretins, such punk will be hauled away. The offence of plasphemy in justice should be treated no differently.

Stone Mountain: it's just your opinion that the judges who overturned the public decency laws understood the Constitution better than the ones who upheld them

I assume you meant the exact opposite. It is not just mine opinion: it is also the opinion of any conservative I know. These are the judges that gave us the IRS, the Social Security, undeclared by Conress foreign expeditions, the gun laws, and the hate crime laws, -- all in clear contradiction to the Constitution, -- and who invented the right to abortion from the constitutional penumbras. Besides, the 19 century judges were simply closer to the Founding Fathers in mentality and had a better grasp on the original intent of the Constitution.

589 posted on 01/27/2005 11:30:42 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex
I assume you meant the exact opposite.

I did - thanks!

It is not just mine opinion: it is also the opinion of any conservative I know. These are the judges that gave us the IRS, the Social Security, undeclared by Conress foreign expeditions, the gun laws, and the hate crime laws, -- all in clear contradiction to the Constitution, -- and who invented the right to abortion from the constitutional penumbras. Besides, the 19 century judges were simply closer to the Founding Fathers in mentality and had a better grasp on the original intent of the Constitution.

Well, not ANY conservative... I'm sure there are people here on this forum (even besides me) who don't have a problem with blasphemous speech being legal. The other things you mentioned may be problems, but are unrelated to this issue.
590 posted on 01/27/2005 11:36:14 AM PST by Stone Mountain
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To: PleaseNoMore

"Two questions for you, if I may. Have you ever believed? If so, what made you stop?

"

Two answers for you. Yes, and it's a long story that I am not going to post here.


591 posted on 01/27/2005 11:37:19 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: annalex
Nevertheless if some punk on the street, for example, yells at people that their wifes are ugly sluts and their children are cretins, such punk will be hauled away.

I live in downtown Oakland and hear things directed at myself and others worse than that all the time. I have yet to see one person get hauled away for this...
592 posted on 01/27/2005 11:38:46 AM PST by Stone Mountain
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To: MineralMan
You're welcome. I just can't understand why it is a personal affront to people that you don't believe. And why that drives people to attack you. You have remained calm and rational throughout this entire thread and you haven't tried to convince anyone that their belief is wrong. I suppose it's your certainty makes people uncomfortable.
593 posted on 01/27/2005 11:39:08 AM PST by SilentServiceCPOWife (Romeo&Juliet, Troilus&Crisedye, Bogey&Bacall, Gable&Lombard, Brigitte&Flav)
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To: SilentServiceCPOWife

Excuse Me..
They are the ones who have Chosen to believe this way. They deny GOD they deny Jesus they have chosen there own path.

Why would GOD choose to remember them when they have chose to deny him?

AS fas as there loved ones go, they don't plan on seeing or ever hearing from them again after there physical death.

I never wished these things for Un-believing Atheists they have chosen it for themselves.


594 posted on 01/27/2005 11:40:14 AM PST by missyme (imho)
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To: annalex

"Public blasphemy or other public insult is a violation of rights unless the receiver of the message had consented to it. It would be fine in an environment which one enters knowingly, such as this forum. It is not fine on the public square if it violates the decency norm. Your comment is mild enough so it is not violative, and in fact the public square in the United States has deteriorated to such extent that it is hard to imagine anything to be below the pale. Nevertheless if some punk on the street, for example, yells at people that their wifes are ugly sluts and their children are cretins, such punk will be hauled away. The offence of plasphemy in justice should be treated no differently. "

I'm sorry, but that's utter nonsense. Blasphemy, in itself, is not illegal, nor should it be. Indeed, your example fo the street punk is wrong, as well. He can freely do what you said and, while he might face retribution from the hearer, will not be arrested.

Blasphemy is a simple thing and may be directed at any deity you wish. I might say that Kali is a lying, thieving, murderous bitch. That is blasphemy. I could say, as has been said on this forum that Allah is a false diety and that its followers are criminals. That is blasphemy. Such an utterance would engender only amusement in this country, while it would create anger elsewhere.

What you're referring to is blasphemy only against the locally popular deity in the USA. That is not illegal, and should never be illegal.

When we lose the freedom to declare that there is no God, or that the popular God is a bully, we lose all of our freedom of speech. That is an opinion, and opinions are protected in the USA.

I would not say those things, nor would I put an anti-religious bumpersticker on my vehicle. I would, however, reserve my right to do so if I chose to. That right is one which I served in our nation's military to protect, and the oath I affirmed at that time is still in effect.


595 posted on 01/27/2005 11:44:55 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MineralMan

A Baby Christian hmmm really never heard that before, but I will tell you this As a Child of GOD I talk to him all the time I ask him for many things and I pray for where I fail in my life and you know what he answers me he guides me he has NEVER failed me NEVER. If that makes me a Baby Christian then that's okay...


596 posted on 01/27/2005 11:45:00 AM PST by missyme (imho)
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To: missyme
AS fas as there loved ones go, they don't plan on seeing or ever hearing from them again after there physical death. Why would I plan on such a thing? Does it matter that I take time every year to go to my grandfather's favorite fishing hole because I know he loved fishing there? (Even if I don't...) Most likely not to you, but it matters a great deal to me, and would to him if he were still alive. I think that it shows respect to one of the many family members I owe my being to. Honor thy father and mother as a metaphor, maybe?
597 posted on 01/27/2005 11:48:32 AM PST by Renderofveils (8th Engineer Bn, 1 Cav. "Cannibals!")
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To: SilentServiceCPOWife

THE LAW OF GOD...
I see nothing that makes exceptions for Atheists.


I am the Lord your G-d, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery"


"You shall have no other gods but me"


"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain"


"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy"


"Honor your father and mother"


"You shall not murder"


"You shall not commit adultery"


"You shall not steal"


"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"


"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his bull, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."


598 posted on 01/27/2005 11:49:15 AM PST by missyme (imho)
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To: SilentServiceCPOWife

"I just can't understand why it is a personal affront to people that you don't believe."

It is not an affront to anyone who is secure in his or her faith. It is only an affront to those who doubt, or to those who believe they have some calling to condemn all unbelievers. At least that's my opinion on the matter.

It has never concerned me that most people have some sort of religious beliefs. I can't imagine why I'd be upset by that. That's why I don't mind if folks worship however they choose. Why would I?

There are some religionists, though, who feel otherwise about those who disbelieve or who believe otherwise than themselves. Wars have been fought over such things, and not just a few. It's a sad thing, to me, since I believe that the realm of faith is a personal realm and has nothing to do with anyone but onesself.

Oh well...this has been a long thread and I'm just about out of steam.


599 posted on 01/27/2005 11:50:10 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Nicholas Conradin
The issue is, no one is forcing him to swear allegiance to anything...HE is attempting to keep the rest of us from being able to swear our allegiance to what the vast majority of us hold to be truths.
600 posted on 01/27/2005 11:51:27 AM PST by Regina (regina)
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