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A Revolution in Evolution Is Underway
Thomas More Lawcenter ^ | Tue, Jan 18, 2005

Posted on 01/20/2005 12:54:58 PM PST by Jay777

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To: MineralMan

I have some other questions too after you get to my previous reply to this post regarding the transition from one genus to another and the difficulties regarding changes in chromosome counts.


361 posted on 01/21/2005 8:25:22 AM PST by JFK_Lib
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To: js1138; betty boop
Thank you for your reply!

Truly, I am not upset that we have been unable to arrive at a broad consensus of "in nature, what is life?"

It is the smoke-bomb assertion of the fallacy of quantizing the continuum which has me in the mood to lob it right back at 'ya. If it is a fallacy, it applies everywhere.

And, btw, I disagree with your requirement to know origin or intent in order to define life v non-life/death. But that is a subject for the Plato thread.

362 posted on 01/21/2005 8:29:59 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Darwin’s theory also asserts that there is an ancestry in the continuum leading from species to species and that is what I am saying requires a quantization of the continuum to assert.

The divergence of our understanding begins here. If I say that you are descended from your grandfather, it's true that there is an intermediate generation to be identified. I don't see how this requires "a quantization of the continuum to asset." We don't disagree that individuals are quantifiable. It's the chain of common descent that makes up the continuum. True, each generation is made up of individuals. That's not a contradiction, or an invocation of the fallacy.

363 posted on 01/21/2005 8:36:54 AM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: Ichneumon
But surely, they're finally right *this* time, eh?

It is different this time because IDers aren't advocating Creationism based on a literal interpretation of Genesis. The ID movement is based on the observation of nature alone.

The revolution began with Johnson's book, "Darwin on Trial." He understands intellectual revolutions, and he's outlined the process of overthrowing evolutionary orthodoxy in academia through "the Wedge." So far, everything seems to be going according to plan.

ID will be common knowledge in the next 20-30 years, and Darwinism will be passe.

364 posted on 01/21/2005 8:46:28 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: PatrickHenry; betty boop
Thank you for your reply!

The divergence of our understanding begins here.

Indeed. But Darwin's theory of a continuum of biological life was not based on any particular person's descent but rather the descent suggested by the geologic record. Of course, there is no written historical record to authenticate the descent and no mortal eyewitness survives.

So the theory of such a continuum is an interpretation of evidence which has been quantized by fossils along the geologic way. Which is why I said this:

IOW, if the evidence for a continuum is the quantization of it and the quantization of a continuum is a fallacy per se then ipso facto evolution is false.

If the quantization of a continuum is not a fallacy per se then we don't have a problem either with evolution or abiogenesis or seeking to answer the question, "in nature, what is life?"

It cuts both ways.

365 posted on 01/21/2005 8:49:50 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: atlaw
Had I used the (inaccurate) term sound byte

You're just being argumentative. If you had anything to say in support of evolutionism then you would have said so, rather than resort to calumnies.

366 posted on 01/21/2005 9:04:04 AM PST by sevry
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To: discostu
Big science requires even bigger sample sets

As with many terms, different people intend different things in saying them. Big science has been a term used to describe the explosion of scientific papers and journals, allowing such things as evolutionism and environmental studies to hide amidst the clutter, to escape any thorough review and to otherwise disappear as cited literature that only provides the faulty basis for that which forms a sort of scientific 'precedent'.

367 posted on 01/21/2005 9:06:52 AM PST by sevry
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To: sevry

Yeah that's not my big science. My big science is the big stuff that really expands our knowledge of the world, like gravity and electricity. I too think papers have gotten too long, pretty much across the board, but it's not the result of oversized sample sets. Probably more the results of undersized sample sets, people hiding their incredible lack of data behind far too many words.


368 posted on 01/21/2005 9:10:07 AM PST by discostu (mime is money)
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To: discostu
Science isn't about efficiency

Mathematics is. And science without math is not what we think of as science. Perhaps one could term philosophy and theology as science. I would. But it's not generally how people see it. A math is not unknown to the latter, in any case.

No the faith can't. Human language isn't up to the task.

Again, you keep denying the obvious in the four principal Creeds of The Church. You can succinctly state belief, and dogmatic belief at that.

in evolution they're fitting modelss to data and keep getting more data that show the base concept is correct

Then whatever terms you prefer. Tell me - what is the "base concept", your wording not mine, of evolution?

369 posted on 01/21/2005 9:12:01 AM PST by sevry
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To: sevry

Math is about expresions, efficient when possible but math people understand that not everything can be expressed simply. They gun for as simply as they can, but some stuff is just not simple. Check out chaos theory, just looking at some of those equations will give you a migraine.

I'm not denying anything. The Creeds are very nice, they're a handy notecard version of The Church, but they don't even come close to expressing the whole. Human languages just can't express things that complex quickly. There's a reason you're expected to read the Bible and not just your 3x5 card with the Creeds, because the Creeds are just a start, the tip of the Faith iceburg.

I already told you what the base concept is: a species in whole or in part turning into 1 or more other species. The process by which we have fossil records of species no living person will ever see roaming the earth, and only very recent fossil records of the species we do see roaming the earth. Evolution is how the world of species changed from the place we see recorded in the fossil record to the one we inhabbit now. How A turned to B. We know there was A and we know there is B and we know something happened in between, the investigation of that something is the science of evolutionary theory.


370 posted on 01/21/2005 9:18:28 AM PST by discostu (mime is money)
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To: discostu
people hiding their incredible lack of data behind far too many words.

Welcome to academia.

371 posted on 01/21/2005 9:22:32 AM PST by sevry
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To: dsc
I can search through the junk on my hard drives and try to find one of the incidents I remember reading about, but I'm not sure what I saved and what I didn't.

I'm sure something as outrageous as a high school teacher making a claim that there is no God (regardless of justification for the claim) would be easy to track down.
372 posted on 01/21/2005 9:28:53 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Aquinasfan
ID will be common knowledge in the next 20-30 years, and Darwinism will be passe.

Spoken confidently every decade for the last 145 years.

I'm curious, since there are so many points of view represented on these threads, which of the following elements of "Darwinism" YOU believe will be disproven.


373 posted on 01/21/2005 9:29:42 AM PST by js1138
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To: discostu
Check out chaos theory

Does sound difficult to arrange.

The Creeds are very nice, they're a handy notecard

You're still not getting this. The four principal Creeds of The Church are dogmatic statements of the Faith, itself. Much more has been written, and lived, based on that confession of Faith.

you're expected to read the Bible

And proudly and ignorantly interpret it wrongly, such that you might even believe the Creeds to be in error? You need a reliable translation, based on the original uncorrupted documents, fairly and faithfully translated at that. The Rheims, a primary source for your KJV, is the perfect example.

How A turned to B

Whatever you mean by that, you yourself claim to confess evolution. There is at least a theory, because you guys always talk about - the theory of evolution, not "a" theory, by the way (the theory). How's it stated? State it for me.

374 posted on 01/21/2005 9:30:48 AM PST by sevry
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To: Matchett-PI
No it isn't okay. The blind-faith religion known as macro-evolution should definately NOT be taught in science classrooms.

Why is "macro-evolution" "blind-faith religion"?
375 posted on 01/21/2005 9:35:06 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: sevry

That's how science goes, as we dig deeper and deeper into the underpinnings of the universe and trying to figure out how it works we get more and more complex stuff that can never be not complex.

I'm getting it fine. I just don't mistake the picture for the actual dish. There's a lot of stuff under the Creeds that should be learned to understand and apply the Creeds.

I never said the Creeds were in error. I said they weren't the whole picture, and they're not, and until we have a revolution in the way humans communicate with each other they can't be. For what they are, with the limitations put on them by our clumsy methods, the Creeds are excellent. They do a very good job of attempting to accomplish the impossible and those that formulated them should be proud of their work; but the task put forward was impossible and remains unacheived and unacheivable for the forseeable future, and that's something that shouldn't be forgotten.

You've already had it stated to you multiple times. Why do you just keep asking the same question over and over? Just read the damn answers that have been provided and stop insisting those aren't answers. You have been answered, if you disagree with the answer then present your disagreement and allow the conversation to move on, the circular discussion does nothing but make it monotonous.


376 posted on 01/21/2005 9:40:21 AM PST by discostu (mime is money)
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To: discostu
I never said the Creeds were in error. I said they weren't the whole picture

But they are - that's why they were composed under God, The Holy Spirit. You have to deny the latter to deny the importance of the former. The four principal Creeds of The Church ARE the dogmatic statement of the Faith. Period! Volumes have been written about the lives that have been lived based on that confession. But they did not deny what you've denied, here.

proud of their work; but the task put forward was impossible

So you do deny God, The Holy Spirit. You say He bit off more than he could chew? You say He foolishly attempted the impossible. You know I don't share your pessimism, nor your blasphemy.

Why do you just keep asking the same question over and over?

Concerning evolution, you mean? To answer, Why? and why not take vague, incomplete and inconsistent sentiment as a scientific? Science.

377 posted on 01/21/2005 9:49:23 AM PST by sevry
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To: Alamo-Girl
quantizing the continuum

Well obviously it isn't a LOGICAL fallacy. It's a fallacy in the sense that you cannot categorize things as living or dead if you do not have agreement on a definition.

It is rather easy to predict that a large animal flattened by a steamroller will not spring back up like a LooneyToon. It is somewhat less certain that a tree is dead when cut down.

But I don't believe the discussion was about legal, clinical death. It was about defining that particular set of criteria that distinguishes life from non-life, in the abstract.

The very fact that we argue about viruses, prions, computer viruses and such indicates there is no clear set of commonly agreed upon criteria. The problem could get much more complex if someone discovers a bootstrap sequence for synthesizing DNA, RNA or proteins.

378 posted on 01/21/2005 9:50:08 AM PST by js1138
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To: Dimensio
"Why is "macro-evolution" "blind-faith religion"?"

Is this the position of a rational, sane person, or the blind-faith" of a religious zealot?:

"In spite of the fact that most mutations are harmful and 2/3 of all mutations are recessive, we evolved because natural selection chose helpful mutations by eliminating those which are harmful. We believe that natural selection can eliminate recessive mutations, and we know that the proof for our belief is out there, we just haven't found it yet."

379 posted on 01/21/2005 9:54:42 AM PST by Matchett-PI (Today's DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: Matchett-PI

The boldface quote is the opinion of someone who is factually incorrect.


380 posted on 01/21/2005 10:01:10 AM PST by js1138
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