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Ancient and Modern - It was tribalism that finished Rome, and it will finish Brussels too
The Spectator - UK ^ | December 25, 2004 | Peter Jones

Posted on 12/26/2004 4:10:53 PM PST by UnklGene

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1 posted on 12/26/2004 4:10:53 PM PST by UnklGene
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To: UnklGene
Rome, in other words, was becoming impotent and irrelevant, an administrative and political centre with no means of commanding authority.

The author seems to believe that the EU at one time HAD power and relevance. And that this supposed time of EU ascendancy is now passing away, with the EU "becoming" impotent and irrelevant.

His naivete makes me smile.

2 posted on 12/26/2004 4:19:45 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (The fourth estate is a fifth column.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

See the new Euroislamic state rise from the ruins..


3 posted on 12/26/2004 4:26:02 PM PST by spokeshave (Strategery + Schardenfreude = Stratenschardenfreudery)
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To: UnklGene
The EU is not the Roman Empire and cannot be since the Roman Empire is still around.

Unrelated, but interesting: When Rome sacked Carthage, it destroyed everything and salted the fields. But, 100 years later Rome rebuilt Carthage.

4 posted on 12/26/2004 4:30:33 PM PST by RightWhale (Destroy the dark; restore the light)
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To: UnklGene
Leaving the Roman Empire, tribes gradually invented the notion of national sovereignty. It took centuries to fully develop it. The idea and practice of national sovereignty reached its heyday during the epoch of Enlightenment.

EU is a retreat to the pre-Enlightenment times, since the members voluntarily lose their sovereignty (or having been bullied to surrender thereof).

Can that continue for any long historical period?

I don't think so. All the more that nowadays' invaders are not Germans (who were a big unknown in the days of Rome) but Mohammedans of all sorts (whose precious qualities as citizens and neighbours are notorious).

5 posted on 12/26/2004 4:38:11 PM PST by Neophyte (Nazists, Communists, Islamists... what the heck is the difference?)
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To: UnklGene

"EUthanasia" Now that is a great, new word for the Euro-weenies.


6 posted on 12/26/2004 4:56:14 PM PST by shrinkermd
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To: UnklGene
... the German Vandal king Gaiseric... Rome simply gave up and left Gaiseric to rule what was now his own sovereign state, though they made several attempts to overthrow him.

The EU had better worry less a "country" will secede and worry more the ever-increasing Muslim hordes will instead overwhelm current populations and rulers and set up their own states, in the very pattern of Gaiseric!

7 posted on 12/26/2004 5:03:14 PM PST by Gritty ("Short of recovery of spiritual and moral strength, Europe faces submission to Muhammad-S Trifkovic)
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To: UnklGene
I believe your conclusion is right on the money -- even gracious in your analysis of the EU's basic (and mortal) flaw:

Man is inherently greedy and warlike! That is a premise that cannot historically be refuted. Sam Huntington recently spent almost 500 pages espousing and detailing that truism in terms of the ongoing "Clash of Civilizations".

Europe will implode within the next two decades; and the ludicrous fabric of the EU -- with its idealistic multi-national falderal -- will enter the dustbins of history; essentially overcome by demographic realities and the selfish national interests of its several nation-states.

Amen. (IMHO, of course) *S*
8 posted on 12/26/2004 5:08:17 PM PST by dk/coro
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To: UnklGene

Bunk.

What will do in the EU is the fact that bigger government is not necessarily better than smaller government. The Europeans don't seem to appreciate this. They are a continent of conformists.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When in Paris, do as the Romans do. When in Bonn, do as the Romans do. When in London, do as the Romans do.

They obvious question is: Why? What's wrong with local governance?


9 posted on 12/26/2004 5:09:38 PM PST by Brilliant
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To: ClearCase_guy
He stretched Roman history around a bit too. The end came in 538 AD with the onset of the Dark Ages.

Prior to that Roman culture, if not government, was definitely in the saddle.

Best anyone can tell the Dark Ages thing started with an abrupt change in the weather and a population dropoff throughout Western Europe.

The Eastern Empire was hit hard as well, but it took another 700 years to bring it down the old fashioned way, with war and politics!

10 posted on 12/26/2004 5:20:15 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Brilliant
They obvious question is: Why? What's wrong with local governance?

Europe would be stronger as federations of homelands (as De Gaulle envisioned) with strong local rule and respect for local traditions and common Christian heritage.

Unfortunately EUrocrats are rabid secularist, gentler in methods but not less hostile to the Church tan Bolsheviks. They hate Christianity so much that they will bring in Islamic countries to use one religion against the other and to try to establish the atheistic utopia of John Lennon.

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one. 

11 posted on 12/26/2004 5:33:53 PM PST by A. Pole (The owl of wisdom flies after sunset.)
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To: UnklGene

bump for the morning coffee!


12 posted on 12/26/2004 5:38:52 PM PST by jocon307 (Jihad is world wide. Jihad is serious business. We ignore global jihad at our peril.)
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To: A. Pole

I don't think they understand the theory behind federalism. The idea is to have as much as possible decided at the local level, and leave to the federal government only those things that must be handled centrally. Instead, they are trying to handle as much as possible at the level of the central government, and leave only those things which absolutely cannot be handled at that level for the local politicians.

That's not the way to maximize freedom, and it's bound to cause friction. Their response is to simply ignore their own laws because they are impractical, which is something they are good at doing anyway. It will ultimately spell their demise.


13 posted on 12/26/2004 5:43:38 PM PST by Brilliant
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To: UnklGene
This fellow's understanding of Roman history is flawed at best. His interpretation of its applicability to the modern EU is laughable. The one similarity between fifth century Rome and modern Europe is the influx of immigrants. The difference is that the barbarians of Rome's time embraced Roman society, political structures, language, military organization, and so forth. They were desperate to seem "Roman". On the other hand, the current European immigrants are truely invaders in every respect, because they refuse to adopt the culture into which they impose themselves.
14 posted on 12/26/2004 5:54:53 PM PST by transhumanist (Science must trump superstition)
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To: Brilliant
I don't think they understand the theory behind federalism.

They do not care. They are drunk with power and they believe that they will bring the perfect atheistic paradise with them as the philosopher kings. They think that they have learned on the mistakes of Jacobins and Bolsheviks and that through the shrewd manipulation they will turn European (and some Muslim or Asian) nations into a mass of docile sheep.

The Orange Revolution on the Ukraine is just a test.

15 posted on 12/26/2004 5:55:25 PM PST by A. Pole (The owl of wisdom flies after sunset.)
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To: ClearCase_guy
His naivete makes me smile.

I agree.

The author states, The problem Rome faced was: do we fight to keep the barbarians out, or are we prepared to make concessions?

The fall of the Roman Empire clearly began when citizens figured out they could vote themselves entitlements. In otherwords a lack of hard cash in the treasury. Of course with our own Federal Government we just print more fiat cash.

16 posted on 12/26/2004 6:06:24 PM PST by Luke (CPO, USCG (Ret))
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To: A. Pole

That's what it's become, but the original idea behind the EU was to pattern Europe after the common market example of America, maybe even to improve on it. They missed the key feature of the US example, though. They ended up with a policy of standardization purely for its own sake, which is antithetical to the American experience, and makes no more sense to the Europeans, either.

It would have gone lot more smoothly if they'd realized from the outset that there was a method to the American Founder's madness. They weren't just trying to bring the States together. They were trying to do so in a way that minimized the role of the federal government to just those things which are necessarily handled at the federal level.


17 posted on 12/26/2004 6:15:14 PM PST by Brilliant
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To: Brilliant; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; FITZ; ...
It would have gone lot more smoothly if they'd realized from the outset that there was a method to the American Founder's madness.

They cannot, they are driven by the fanatical atheism - the same one that was animating Jacobins and Bolsheviks.But EUrocracts believe that they will not fail as their spiritual brethren did. They hope that the cunning, patient brainwashing and playing one group against another will do the trick.

That is why they will bring Turkey into Europe. They will use Muslims against Christians and Christians against Muslims. EUrocrats love Ataturk's cruel secularism and they hope they will be able to adopt it in the European nations in the name of tolerance, religious peace and freedom from the moral constraints.

18 posted on 12/26/2004 6:42:15 PM PST by A. Pole (The owl of wisdom flies after sunset.)
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To: Brilliant
They were trying to do so in a way that minimized the role of the federal government to just those things which are necessarily handled at the federal level.

That's right, and even the EUros have recognized this. In EUrospeak, the concept is called subsidiarity and it's written into the latest treaties.

Of course, being written into a treaty and actually practiced by the EUrocrats are two different things, but they at least pay lip service to subsidiarity.

I think it's wrong to pin Europe's problems on the EU. At most the EU is merely a symptom of the underlying malaise of population stagnation and the economic suffocation of socialism.

Europe has been dying ever since it self-slaughtered so many in World War I.

19 posted on 12/26/2004 6:43:03 PM PST by Martin Tell (Red States Rule)
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To: A. Pole

It'll be real interesting to see if the EU can secularize Islam. I bet not.


20 posted on 12/26/2004 6:49:46 PM PST by Brilliant
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