Posted on 12/21/2004 7:09:06 AM PST by ZGuy
"It's not ownership of the Temple that gives Muslims their strength. Jews are still in disobedience. They have failed to listen to the prophets and recognize that Jesus is the Messiah."
Can we please avoid the "my religion/g-d is better than yours" pi$$ing match on Free Republic? You are utterly free to believe what you want, just as I and everyone else are free to do. However, effectively saying "you guys are all suffering as sinners because you don't believe as I do" isn't exactly the way to win friends and influence people - quite to the contrary, you not only don't convince anyone that way, you just tick them off. If you are secure in your own faith, there is no reason to have to beat your chest about it on FR - believe me, G-d knows your heart and your mind.
As for my view, the Bible that G-d gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai in front of the whole Hebrew people mentions nothing about "Jesus" (and that's not really the name of the person you worship as the Messiah, it is an English bastardization of the Greek bastardization of his Jewish name), not even by implication. Further, G-d isn't a liar or an Indian-giver, and if the Covenant that He made with the Jewish people were to somehow or other be broken or superceded (a highly doubtful prospect), it could only be done in front of the whole of the people, in the same manner that it was given. The testimony or beliefs of a few people who lived roughly 2,000 years ago simply don't measure up to G-d's own word in my book.
FYI, the Jewish point of view on Jesus is that he doesn't even qualify as the Jewish Mochiach/Messiah. I won't bore anyone with the details, but if one is interested, the best short explanation that I've ever seen is at: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_messiah.html
Jesus may be the Christian (and your personal) Messiah, but please don't try to tell Jews who ours is - we've been thinking about this type of thing for about least 1,800 years longer than you guys, and we think that we know our own scripture better than anyone else.
Oh, BTW, the mere mention of the facts and my opinions above are only stated with an eye toward rebutting your words (because the failure to do so would imply that I accept your statement as fact, which I clearly don't do). I am not attempting, in any way, to demean your religion or your own personal faith, so please don't come back and tell me that this is what I did.
Danny, you and everyone else are utterly free to believe what you wish to believe. I harbor you no ill will at all and, in fact, wish you good health, happiness and prosperity. I have not a single problem with you believing that the Jewish people is somehow suffering for not believing in Jesus - but I just don't want to read about it here. Oh, and Merry Christmas - I hope that you and your loved ones have a very happy holiday.
I hope you don't think I am being confrontational with you because I am truly not, but I do have interest in the End Time belief of the 2nd Coming of Christ and the Jewish belief of the waited Messiah especially because of the current trend the world is headed in trying to wipe GOD out of public life and become a total secular nation...
Anyways in reading both (Jewish and Christian) perspectives of the Messiah they are so similar you have to read very hard into each prophecy to find the differences, my question to you is have you ever considered the Messiah you are waiting for is the same one Christians are waiting for in the second coming?
END Times PROPHECY:
JUDIASM:
The Messiah will defeat the gentile nations (Zech 14:10) and restore the kingdom of Israel (Zech 14). The Jews in exile will return and rule in an age of spiritual harmony (Zech 14:5). Isaiah 42:6 will be fulfilled and God will be recognized as the universal king (Zech 14:9).
Yes - shofar will announce beginning of messianic era, gather the scattered exiles, and serve as a summons to the heavenly court on the Day of Judgment
CHRISTIANITY:
Jesus will come to rescue Israel, defeat the Antichrist (Rev. 19:11-21), judge the nations (Matt. 25:31-46) and the wicked in Israel (Ezek. 20:33-38), and rule over the messianic kingdom (Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:1-6)
Matthew 24:31 "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
(Also 1 Thessalonians 4:16)
FUTURE OF ISRAEL: JUDAISM:Eternally restored (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
CHRISTIANITY:Eternally restored (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
Leviticus 19:17 - Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Ezekiel 3:18 - When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
No we can't avoid it. I am compelled by love to point out to Jews what they have missed. I cannot be silent and let them die in disobedience. If I tick them off, they are no worse off. If they take a moment and examine what the prophets said, then they may obtain eternal life. Love demands I speak and God demands that I love.
Now that said, Jews certainly have a right, even a God given right to make their own choices. I'm not here to force as the Muslims do. I won't hate the Jew if he chooses poorly. I don't won't to irritate them anymore than I have to, but I cannot remain silent.
"As for my view, the Bible that G-d gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai in front of the whole Hebrew people mentions nothing about "Jesus""
Here a descendant of Eve is to crush the head of the Serpent Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Here God promised the world would be blessed through Abraham. How has that happened if not through Jesus? (I acknowledge up front that there are other plausible answers. But Jesus is the most obvious one. 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed
Jesus is foreshadowed by Melchizedek in Gen. 14 by being a high priest to God, King of Salem, and by bringing bread and wine to Abraham.
Genesis 49:10 - The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Genesis 17:21 - But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Jesus is foreshadowed by Abraham's near sacrifice of Isaac. God would provide the substitute.
Jesus is foreshadowed by the serpent put on the tree by Moses, that Israel had to look to to be healed when bitten by the serpents. The serpent is the symbol of sin. If Israel is to be healed from having been bitten by sin, they must look to the symbol of sin (Jesus) put on the tree (cross) to be healed. Numbers 21
Jesus is foreshadowed by the Passover, Exodus 12. It was the blood of the lamb that spared Israel from the Angel of Death. Not their lineage, not their belief that God is, not their faith in God (except to the extent that faith caused them to be obedient and put the blood there.)
Further, G-d isn't a liar or an Indian-giver, and if the Covenant that He made with the Jewish people were to somehow or other be broken or superceded (a highly doubtful prospect), it could only be done in front of the whole of the people, in the same manner that it was given.
The covenant with Israel is not broken. The covenant with the Jews is what it always was. Obedience results in peace and prosperity. Disobedience results in terror and exile. What have you had for the last 2000 years? And does Israel have peace as promised in Leviticus 26? If not, why not?
Moses said that God would raise up a prophet like Him and that would give Israel further instructions. Therefore to say, that there is no mention of Jesus in the books of Moses, is not only wrong as indicated by the verses above, but it excludes the words of the prophets in direct contradiction to what Moses told you to do. To ignore the prophets is to disobey Moses and break the covenant.
Deuteronomy 18:18 - I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
God said in the following verse that the covenant would be superceded.
Jeremiah 31:31 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
My post # 42 wasn't a response to you, it was to DannyTN. I don't feel like you insulted me, - as I said to Danny, everyone is fully entitled to their beliefs. I just don't like hearing someone say that I'm damned or a sinner or whatever, just because I don't share their beliefs. It is impossible to have a rational or friendly conversation if that is the premise that the other person has.
...my question to you is have you ever considered the Messiah you are waiting for is the same one Christians are waiting for in the second coming?
Being an open-minded person, I long ago considered it - VERY briefly. The website that I referred to in Post #42 does a better job, more briefly than I could hope to do it, in refuting that idea from the perspective of Judaism. Jesus is clearly the Christian Messiah, but is just as clearly not the Jewish one. You can, of course, choose to look at it and consider it - or not - as you see fit.
No offence taken.
"I have not a single problem with you believing that the Jewish people is somehow suffering for not believing in Jesus - but I just don't want to read about it here.
I understand. Nor do I have a problem with you not believing in Jesus. That's between you and God. I'm just the message bearer, and having delivered the message, I'm not compelled to belabor the point, unless you care to discuss it further.
However please understand, you aren't the only one who reads these threads, and therefore, I will continue posting such warnings to Jews in general on FR. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I hope my prior post makes clear my motivation is not ill will or to demean.
Me: "Can we please avoid the "my religion/g-d is better than yours" pi$$ing match on Free Republic?"
You: "No we can't avoid it. I am compelled by love to point out to Jews what they have missed. I cannot be silent and let them die in disobedience. …I don't won't to irritate them anymore than I have to, but I cannot remain silent."
OK, fine, you’ve pointed out to me that you think I’m wrong. I, however, still disagree, and any further attempts to show me that “yours is bigger than mine” will only cause more annoyance. You won’t convince me, just as I’m sure that I won’t convince you. Drop it, go on with your life and I'll do the same.
Me: "As for my view, the Bible that G-d gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai in front of the whole Hebrew people mentions nothing about "Jesus"
You: "Here a descendant of Eve is to crush the head of the Serpent Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Here God promised the world would be blessed through Abraham. How has that happened if not through Jesus? (I acknowledge up front that there are other plausible answers. But Jesus is the most obvious one. 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed
Jesus is foreshadowed by Melchizedek in Gen. 14 by being a high priest to God, King of Salem, and by bringing bread and wine to Abraham."
I haven’t the faintest idea what the 1st 2 paragraphs mean in the context of what we are discussing; as to the 3rd, any prophet or good person could be foreshadowed in the same way. Just because you think Jesus (in your scriptures) meets this qualification doesn’t make it so or mean that he’s the Messiah described in the Jewish scriptures.
You: "Moses said that God would raise up a prophet like Him and that would give Israel further instructions. Therefore to say, that there is no mention of Jesus in the books of Moses, is not only wrong as indicated by the verses above, but it excludes the words of the prophets in direct contradiction to what Moses told you to do. To ignore the prophets is to disobey Moses and break the covenant."
Just because YOU say that Jesus is foreshadowed in particular events in the Jewish scriptures does not make it a fact. “Moses said that G-d would raise up a prophet like him….” - this proves NOTHING about Jesus, since this prophet could be anyone. According to Jewish theology, the Moshiach/Messiah has not yet appeared; moreover, anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a candidate for Messiah has to meet certain criteria - ALL of them - and Jesus didn't; further, there is absolutely NO scriptural basis in Jewish theology for the assertion that the Messiah (whoever He will be) would come any more than once (at the end of history as we know it). Finally, even IF (for the sake of argument) one were to pick someone from history who was going to be the Messiah (according to Jewish theology), I wouldn't pick Jesus - because he fails to meet the most basic requirement of being a descendent of both David and Solomon on his father's side. Heck, your scriptures say that he had no human biological father, so Jesus therefore is automatically excluded from being the Messiah foretold in Jewish scripture. Even IF you used Joseph's genealogy (which would fly in the face of your scriptures), he isn't descended from David's son Solomon, but David's son Nathan - no good according to Jewish theology. The simple fact is that you and I are talking about 2 different people. For you and other believing Christians, Jesus was/is the Messiah; for me and other believing Jews, the Messiah hasn't come - and it will be so incredibly self-evident to everyone on Earth who He is when He comes that all debate on the subject will cease.
If you are truly interested in learning something, take a look at the following websites to gain some insight into Jewish theology on this issue:
The Messiah according to Judaism: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_messiah.html
Jewish belief in Messiah: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-belief.html
You: “God said in the following verse that the covenant would be superceded.
Jeremiah 31:31 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:”
Take a look at this: “Jeremiah's "new covenant" is not a replacement of the existing covenant, but merely a figure of speech expressing the reinvigoration and revitalization of the existing covenant. The people of Israel possess an old covenant yet a new covenant, truly an everlasting covenant.” http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq099.html
__________________
I cannot stress enough that it is insulting to tell Jews, who have as a people studied Torah and Talmud in great depth for over 3,000 years, that we are wrong about our own scriptures – that someone who plainly doesn’t meet the criteria to be the Messiah as laid out in our scriptures IS, in fact, just such a person…and to claim that your religion supercedes ours because your interpretation of MY religion is better than that of dozens of generations of true Torah scholars – that is sheer arrogance. You have your Messiah, Jews have theirs - and these people simply do not share an identity. If your belief requires that your Messiah be the one described in the Jewish scriptures, then maybe you have some hard thinking to do; at the very least, you should study the Jewish scriptures AND the Talmud AND the interpretations of both (most notably those of Maimonides, one of the greatest, if not THE greatest commentator in all of Jewish history on this subject). Once you've studied those, you'll understand that Jesus isn't the Jewish Messiah.
Like I said, we aren't likely to agree. Instead, let’s just agree to disagree, and remain civil about it.
a stone or a piece of wood is lifeless and has no power in itself. The prophets point this out in great detail.
Thank you for your response but one thing is that I don't see any contradictions in the links you posted in regards to the awaited Messiah from Jews for Judasim? what part are you seeing a difference there?
Also have you not given a thought that Theologians Christians and Jews have studied 3000 years of religious history that is not exclusive to current Jewish Rabbi's.
This really is a debate between Jews of Ancient Biblical Israel, current Jewish theologians have to look at the truth from all angles of TORAH and the Gospels to see how Jews wrote the entire history of what we all study now.
Current Jewish theologians do not have a better understanding of Jewish history from a Christian Theologian who has also put in just as much time and research.
That would be like saying Blacks have a better understanding of Black History than a Caucasion or Asian.
You have to understand Both Faiths Christians and Jews are studying and doing research of Jewish Biblical History, especially before the Gospels was taken to the Gentile world.
I'll buy the dynamite!
the ark of the covenant did have the power of God overwatching it. But these foundation stones are not the ark, nor are they the temple. a stone or a piece of wood is lifeless and has no power in itself. The prophets point this out in great detail.
Temple....stones....wood.....PEOPLE........IN THE LAND!
Its about the LAND!
and,......THE PROMISE TO THE PEOPLE (NOT Christians) of the LAND!
:-)
All of the believing redeemed of:
.........Israel... Forever!
.........
.........Church (Which is Not Israel) Forever too!
.........
.........Saved Gentiles (neither the church nor Israel) Forever too!
ALL Redeemed by GRACE ALONE through FAITH ALONE in the SUBSTITUTE PENAL DEATH of JESUS!
His GLORIOUS ON THE CROSS DEATH was are Salvation-sealed-GIFT from Him, Jesus, THE SON of GOD!
1) anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a candidate for Messiah has to meet certain criteria - ALL of them - and Jesus didn't;
I agree that the Messiah will fulfill all of the prophecies about him, but I do not agree that they must all be fulfilled at once, or that there is no way to know before ALL are fulfilled. Of course that gets into the next point. 2) there is absolutely NO scriptural basis in Jewish theology for the assertion that the Messiah (whoever He will be) would come any more than once (at the end of history as we know it).
Well, actually there is and my understanding is that the ancient Jewish Rabbi's debated wether the Messiah would come once or twice, or whether there would be two Messiahs. They couldn't make sense of the verses that said the Messiah would be cut off. I've seen a link to that effect that cited rabbinical sources and references.
Daniel 9:26 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven sevens, and threescore and two sevens: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Taken from Isaiah 53; Circa 740 B.C.-- Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? ...He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. ...he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows... But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. ...For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken ...though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet...the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,...he will...prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. ... my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. ...he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 3)Finally, even IF (for the sake of argument) one were to pick someone from history who was going to be the Messiah (according to Jewish theology), I wouldn't pick Jesus - because he fails to meet the most basic requirement of being a descendent of both David and Solomon on his father's side. Heck, your scriptures say that he had no human biological father, so Jesus therefore is automatically excluded from being the Messiah foretold in Jewish scripture. Even IF you used Joseph's genealogy (which would fly in the face of your scriptures), he isn't descended from David's son Solomon, but David's son Nathan - no good according to Jewish theology.
I do not see it clearly stated that the entire chain of descendancy must be male, only that the child would be from the seed of the sons of David.
Jesus was desended from Nathan through Mary, but he was legally descended from Solomon through David.
for me and other believing Jews, the Messiah hasn't come - and it will be so incredibly self-evident to everyone on Earth who He is when He comes that all debate on the subject will cease.
I agree that the next time will be incredibly self-evident. But if the following verse is about the Messiah, then He still has to be "pierced" before that universal recognition occurs.
Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Thanks for the ping!
I agree with you. Superceded is the wrong word. Fulfilled is the correct word.
Jesus didn't annul the law, He fulfilled it. The sentence of death for sin was not abrogated, it was PAID by Jesus. Certain aspects of the law, including the kosher laws were set up as a sign to separate Israel from the other nations. They never applied to the gentile nations and when salvation was extended to the Gentiles, there was no reason to extend these laws.
The basic law to "love others and walk humbly before your God" is still in effect. But noone was ever saved by the law, except to the extent that knowledge of the law made us aware of sin. And that knowledge led us to repent before the Lord who redeemed us.
Yes there is scriptural support. And it is very clear. The Mt. Sinai Covenant was between Israel and God, not the world and God. But through Israel the world would be blessed. The following passage, clearly designates Israel and only Israel as being required to observe certain laws.
Lev 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people. 25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.
Exodus 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Notice it not directed to all mankind, it's directed to the children of Israel only and for the purpose of separating them.
If you go back to Noah, before the Mosaic covenant you find this:
Genesis 9:3 - Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
So do you see that all animals were ok to eat until the Mosaic covenant, when certain animals became unclean for Israel and for Israel only. Why? Because as the first passage above says, it was to separate Israel from other nations. God created a very strong cultural identity for Israel through the kosher laws that helped protect Israel from foreign influences and served to keep them separate. This was important because through God's special relationship with Israel, he would teach the whole world how to relate to Him. He would teach us all about holiness.
But then Jesus said, what goes into the body does not make the body unclean, it's what comes out of the heart that makes a body unclean. And then God told Paul, a pharisee, to kill and eat any of the animals he wanted to. Paul was taken aback and said, No way, I've never eaten anything unclean. God said, don't say it's unclean if I have said it's clean.
Don't you understand It's not that the animals are unclean in themselves, they were unclean for Israel only, because of Israel's covenant with the Lord. That's why they were clean for Noah, and that's why they were clean for Paul.
The 10 commandments, with the exception of keeping the sabbath, are required under the greater law of love your neighbor and walk humbly before your God. You can't break one of those and not break the greater law.
For a Jew to eat an unclean animal prior to Jesus, would bbe to show dishonor towards the Mosaic covenant. But such aanimals were never unclean for the gentiles.
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