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To: Ancesthntr
Excellent, a logical argument. And yes we will agree to disagree. But you have raised several points that need a response. So here goes.

1) anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a candidate for Messiah has to meet certain criteria - ALL of them - and Jesus didn't;

I agree that the Messiah will fulfill all of the prophecies about him, but I do not agree that they must all be fulfilled at once, or that there is no way to know before ALL are fulfilled. Of course that gets into the next point. 2) there is absolutely NO scriptural basis in Jewish theology for the assertion that the Messiah (whoever He will be) would come any more than once (at the end of history as we know it).

Well, actually there is and my understanding is that the ancient Jewish Rabbi's debated wether the Messiah would come once or twice, or whether there would be two Messiahs. They couldn't make sense of the verses that said the Messiah would be cut off. I've seen a link to that effect that cited rabbinical sources and references.

Daniel 9:26 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven sevens, and threescore and two sevens: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Taken from Isaiah 53; Circa 740 B.C.-- Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? ...He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. ...he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows... But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. ...For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken ...though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet...the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,...he will...prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. ... my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. ...he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 3)Finally, even IF (for the sake of argument) one were to pick someone from history who was going to be the Messiah (according to Jewish theology), I wouldn't pick Jesus - because he fails to meet the most basic requirement of being a descendent of both David and Solomon on his father's side. Heck, your scriptures say that he had no human biological father, so Jesus therefore is automatically excluded from being the Messiah foretold in Jewish scripture. Even IF you used Joseph's genealogy (which would fly in the face of your scriptures), he isn't descended from David's son Solomon, but David's son Nathan - no good according to Jewish theology.

I do not see it clearly stated that the entire chain of descendancy must be male, only that the child would be from the seed of the sons of David.

Jesus was desended from Nathan through Mary, but he was legally descended from Solomon through David.

for me and other believing Jews, the Messiah hasn't come - and it will be so incredibly self-evident to everyone on Earth who He is when He comes that all debate on the subject will cease.

I agree that the next time will be incredibly self-evident. But if the following verse is about the Messiah, then He still has to be "pierced" before that universal recognition occurs.

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

54 posted on 12/21/2004 4:32:47 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN
anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a candidate for Messiah has to meet certain criteria

If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'—which you have not known—'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for HaShem your God is testing you to know whether you love HaShem your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after HaShem your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which HaShem your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst. Deuteronomy 13:1-5

One of the principle reasons why the Sage Rambam rejected 'Jesus' as Messiah was the 'Christianity', in much the same way you have done here, told the Jews of the day that 'Jesus' was a Jewish Messiah and Prophet, and upon coming had annulled the 'Law'. Contrary to Y'shua's own words in Matthew 5:17-19, 'Christians' have for years been trying to get Jews to depart from the faith of their fathers and join a 'new religion'. HaShem's own words say that if a prophet comes and leads away from the commandments of HaShem, he should be rejected and put to death.

Y'shua did not teach against the Torah, nor did the covenant in Him replace the covenant HaShem made with Ysra'el. HaShem does not want His people to depart from the faith of their fathers - instead, He wants them to draw the Nations to Him.
56 posted on 12/21/2004 5:15:26 PM PST by safisoft (Give me Torah!)
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