Me: "Can we please avoid the "my religion/g-d is better than yours" pi$$ing match on Free Republic?"
You: "No we can't avoid it. I am compelled by love to point out to Jews what they have missed. I cannot be silent and let them die in disobedience. …I don't won't to irritate them anymore than I have to, but I cannot remain silent."
OK, fine, you’ve pointed out to me that you think I’m wrong. I, however, still disagree, and any further attempts to show me that “yours is bigger than mine” will only cause more annoyance. You won’t convince me, just as I’m sure that I won’t convince you. Drop it, go on with your life and I'll do the same.
Me: "As for my view, the Bible that G-d gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai in front of the whole Hebrew people mentions nothing about "Jesus"
You: "Here a descendant of Eve is to crush the head of the Serpent Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Here God promised the world would be blessed through Abraham. How has that happened if not through Jesus? (I acknowledge up front that there are other plausible answers. But Jesus is the most obvious one. 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed
Jesus is foreshadowed by Melchizedek in Gen. 14 by being a high priest to God, King of Salem, and by bringing bread and wine to Abraham."
I haven’t the faintest idea what the 1st 2 paragraphs mean in the context of what we are discussing; as to the 3rd, any prophet or good person could be foreshadowed in the same way. Just because you think Jesus (in your scriptures) meets this qualification doesn’t make it so or mean that he’s the Messiah described in the Jewish scriptures.
You: "Moses said that God would raise up a prophet like Him and that would give Israel further instructions. Therefore to say, that there is no mention of Jesus in the books of Moses, is not only wrong as indicated by the verses above, but it excludes the words of the prophets in direct contradiction to what Moses told you to do. To ignore the prophets is to disobey Moses and break the covenant."
Just because YOU say that Jesus is foreshadowed in particular events in the Jewish scriptures does not make it a fact. “Moses said that G-d would raise up a prophet like him….” - this proves NOTHING about Jesus, since this prophet could be anyone. According to Jewish theology, the Moshiach/Messiah has not yet appeared; moreover, anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a candidate for Messiah has to meet certain criteria - ALL of them - and Jesus didn't; further, there is absolutely NO scriptural basis in Jewish theology for the assertion that the Messiah (whoever He will be) would come any more than once (at the end of history as we know it). Finally, even IF (for the sake of argument) one were to pick someone from history who was going to be the Messiah (according to Jewish theology), I wouldn't pick Jesus - because he fails to meet the most basic requirement of being a descendent of both David and Solomon on his father's side. Heck, your scriptures say that he had no human biological father, so Jesus therefore is automatically excluded from being the Messiah foretold in Jewish scripture. Even IF you used Joseph's genealogy (which would fly in the face of your scriptures), he isn't descended from David's son Solomon, but David's son Nathan - no good according to Jewish theology. The simple fact is that you and I are talking about 2 different people. For you and other believing Christians, Jesus was/is the Messiah; for me and other believing Jews, the Messiah hasn't come - and it will be so incredibly self-evident to everyone on Earth who He is when He comes that all debate on the subject will cease.
If you are truly interested in learning something, take a look at the following websites to gain some insight into Jewish theology on this issue:
The Messiah according to Judaism: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_messiah.html
Jewish belief in Messiah: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-belief.html
You: “God said in the following verse that the covenant would be superceded.
Jeremiah 31:31 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:”
Take a look at this: “Jeremiah's "new covenant" is not a replacement of the existing covenant, but merely a figure of speech expressing the reinvigoration and revitalization of the existing covenant. The people of Israel possess an old covenant yet a new covenant, truly an everlasting covenant.” http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq099.html
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I cannot stress enough that it is insulting to tell Jews, who have as a people studied Torah and Talmud in great depth for over 3,000 years, that we are wrong about our own scriptures – that someone who plainly doesn’t meet the criteria to be the Messiah as laid out in our scriptures IS, in fact, just such a person…and to claim that your religion supercedes ours because your interpretation of MY religion is better than that of dozens of generations of true Torah scholars – that is sheer arrogance. You have your Messiah, Jews have theirs - and these people simply do not share an identity. If your belief requires that your Messiah be the one described in the Jewish scriptures, then maybe you have some hard thinking to do; at the very least, you should study the Jewish scriptures AND the Talmud AND the interpretations of both (most notably those of Maimonides, one of the greatest, if not THE greatest commentator in all of Jewish history on this subject). Once you've studied those, you'll understand that Jesus isn't the Jewish Messiah.
Like I said, we aren't likely to agree. Instead, let’s just agree to disagree, and remain civil about it.
Thank you for your response but one thing is that I don't see any contradictions in the links you posted in regards to the awaited Messiah from Jews for Judasim? what part are you seeing a difference there?
Also have you not given a thought that Theologians Christians and Jews have studied 3000 years of religious history that is not exclusive to current Jewish Rabbi's.
This really is a debate between Jews of Ancient Biblical Israel, current Jewish theologians have to look at the truth from all angles of TORAH and the Gospels to see how Jews wrote the entire history of what we all study now.
Current Jewish theologians do not have a better understanding of Jewish history from a Christian Theologian who has also put in just as much time and research.
That would be like saying Blacks have a better understanding of Black History than a Caucasion or Asian.
You have to understand Both Faiths Christians and Jews are studying and doing research of Jewish Biblical History, especially before the Gospels was taken to the Gentile world.
1) anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a candidate for Messiah has to meet certain criteria - ALL of them - and Jesus didn't;
I agree that the Messiah will fulfill all of the prophecies about him, but I do not agree that they must all be fulfilled at once, or that there is no way to know before ALL are fulfilled. Of course that gets into the next point. 2) there is absolutely NO scriptural basis in Jewish theology for the assertion that the Messiah (whoever He will be) would come any more than once (at the end of history as we know it).
Well, actually there is and my understanding is that the ancient Jewish Rabbi's debated wether the Messiah would come once or twice, or whether there would be two Messiahs. They couldn't make sense of the verses that said the Messiah would be cut off. I've seen a link to that effect that cited rabbinical sources and references.
Daniel 9:26 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven sevens, and threescore and two sevens: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two sevens shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Taken from Isaiah 53; Circa 740 B.C.-- Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? ...He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. ...he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows... But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. ...For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken ...though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet...the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,...he will...prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. ... my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. ...he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 3)Finally, even IF (for the sake of argument) one were to pick someone from history who was going to be the Messiah (according to Jewish theology), I wouldn't pick Jesus - because he fails to meet the most basic requirement of being a descendent of both David and Solomon on his father's side. Heck, your scriptures say that he had no human biological father, so Jesus therefore is automatically excluded from being the Messiah foretold in Jewish scripture. Even IF you used Joseph's genealogy (which would fly in the face of your scriptures), he isn't descended from David's son Solomon, but David's son Nathan - no good according to Jewish theology.
I do not see it clearly stated that the entire chain of descendancy must be male, only that the child would be from the seed of the sons of David.
Jesus was desended from Nathan through Mary, but he was legally descended from Solomon through David.
for me and other believing Jews, the Messiah hasn't come - and it will be so incredibly self-evident to everyone on Earth who He is when He comes that all debate on the subject will cease.
I agree that the next time will be incredibly self-evident. But if the following verse is about the Messiah, then He still has to be "pierced" before that universal recognition occurs.
Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.