Posted on 12/19/2004 7:30:58 AM PST by God defeats Darwin
Police angry over rifle delay Mayor weighs issue of firepower; call it his toughest decision yet Saturday, December 18, 2004 CAROL ROBINSON News staff writer
Birmingham police officers, tired of what they call rhetoric and unfulfilled promises, say they will take their case for carrying high-powered rifles on patrol to City Hall.
"We are outgunned, bottom line," said Birmingham police Sgt. Allen Treadaway, president of the Fraternal Order of Police. "We have got to be able to respond with firepower necessary to do the job." Advertisement
Birmingham police officers for several years have sought to be allowed to carry AR-15s or similar semiautomatic rifles, a step already taken by some departments across the Birmingham area and the nation.
The desire almost reached fever pitch in June when officers Harley Chisolm, Rob Bennett and Carlos Owen - all armed with handguns - were shot to death with a semi-automatic SKS rifle.
"Here we were out there looking for these guys," Treadaway said of the first responders, "and we were carrying handguns."
Treadaway said Birmingham Police Chief Annetta Nunn signed off on a proposed policy for rifles, but said the proposal has hit a wall in the mayor's office.
Officers said they are frustrated because Kincaid, in June, stood before hundreds of mourning police officers at the memorial service for their three comrades and promised them this: "We want to make sure for those of you who wear the blue, we will provide you with the best equipment available."
The mayor said Friday he's conflicted about the decision. "It is the thorniest issue I've faced in my tenure as mayor."
Kincaid acknowledged the request has been before him since he took office in 1999, and said those demands heightened after the triple killings.
`Political considerations':
Kincaid decided to delay a decision after police officers in August fatally shot Benjamin Griggs, 58, a mentally ill Vietnam War veteran who held police at bay for two hours and fired on officers. A coroner's report showed Griggs was shot 24 times.
The weight of Griggs' death for his friends and family was as heavy, Kincaid said, as the grief officers felt when three colleagues were killed with rifle bullets that pierced their armored vests.
"That community was up in arms. There are political considerations, as well as the safety consideration for officers," Kincaid said.
"One segment of the community feels the police already use too much firepower, another is raising Cain about Tasers in the schools, and I feel the need to equip my officers for their safety."
Treadaway disagreed: "To say there's political ramifications over a man who tried to take a police officer's life, that unfortunately resulted in his death, to compare that with officers who have given their lives to make our community safer, I don't see how you can draw a parallel."
Currently, Birmingham's officers are issued double-action semi-automatic 9mm Beretta pistols. They are allowed to a carry their own semi-automatic handguns if they are properly trained in their use.
Most police tactical units, including Birmingham's, already carry rifles.
Policy drafted:
The drafted rifle policy, completed in July, calls for officers to be allowed to carry a Colt AR-15 M-4 Carbine, a Bushmaster XM-15 A-2 Carbine or a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. Each officer who chooses to carry a rifle would first have to complete the necessary training and qualification program.
The policy also calls for officers to keep rifles in cases secured in the trunks of the patrol cars until a dangerous situation arises, such as a high-risk felony traffic stop or an armed robbery in progress.
"This is not a situation of officers walking around with military-type weapons on their side," Treadaway said. "It's a matter of letting them put a tool in their toolbox so they can do their jobs."
Kincaid said he has asked the Alabama League of Municipalities to research the policies of similar-sized cities and give him a report.
"It's an issue I don't take lightly," Kincaid said. "I'm trying to arrive at the right decision."
What others do:
In Mountain Brook, police officers who have qualified with rifles may check out the department-owned weapons at the beginning of their shifts. "We've been doing it for some time, at least a couple of years," Chief Johnny Stanley said.
Hoover police officers also can carry the rifles. They may choose between city-issued weapons or their own rifles, as long as they have qualified.
Homewood police patrol supervisors are issued rifles, but not patrol officers, who may carry shotguns on duty.
In Leeds, the city hasn't provided funding for patrol rifles, but officers who have qualified to use the guns and want to carry their own are allowed to do so with department approval.
"I'm a strong believer in it," said Chief Tony Hudson. "Every police officer should have access to a rifle for those situations where we're outgunned."
Jefferson County Sheriff Mike Hale in October gave his deputies the choice to carry approved rifles, and he encouraged Kincaid to follow.
"He must trust the chief on this," Hale said. "I would encourage all policymakers to consider this. It's just the environment of crime fighting and it makes sense for law enforcement to carry this type firepower."
Birmingham City Councilman Joel Montgomery asked other council members in a memo Friday to allow police union representatives and officers to speak at Tuesday's meeting.
E-mail: crobinson@bhamnews.com
No, they are not. By DoD definition an assault rifle is select fire rifle/carbine firing an intermediate power catridge. The weapons listed are all semi-automatic.
If the federal assault weapons ban had not expired, then they would be "assault weapons", most likely, depending on features. However they might still be illegal (well highly regulated and taxed) for thee and me, if they have barrels less than 16" in length.
Most od of LEOs where I live have them. They have to buy them quite often thenselves. But they have them - semiautos mainly.
You may see that as an advantage, but image is what the Sonderkommando are looking for.
There's 4 M-14's down there too. Captain won't let me have one of those. Don't know why, they certified me to carry my M1A on duty.
We got a few Thompson submachine guns also. Very nice.
I don't think they know what they want...Just that they want it...Go figure...
Think of it like this..."Travis McGee" would say (and I agree) the increasing militarization of Law Enforcement in this country is just getting worse and worse...
They know the legitimate needs of true patriots in this country, that we recognize that unequal threat...
Interesting post. Good point.
My Dad years ago had a nieghbor down our street who was in the Houston P.D., had taken him on a ride along...
After the shift brief, they hopped in the cruiser and stopped by his personal vehicle...Popped the trunk and loaded my Dad up with a vintage .30 carbine...
My Dad asked what the hell this was for...And our nieghbor said, "What do you think?"...That was back in the late 70's...
I can't throw rocks at that logic at all...
As much as I abhor the idea...I do not think Law Enforcement in this country should have to go hand in foot to get the tools they need to do their jobs...
And its not just about firearms either...
Thompson is a kewl tewl....extremely accurate on full auto. Better than a MP5SDA3 IMHO. But it's still a handgun round. Risk managers usually ain't LEO's....are yours ?
I favor the bolt action patrol rifle such as FN recently introduced to the market for the "surgical accountability" reasons I spoke of above. The Semi-suto AR / CAR-15 or M4 clones are my second choice for a urban issue with the M1A or FN FAL for Rural LEO needs.
Hope yer well troop !........Stay safe !
A rifle is a good idea. About the 24 hits, presumably from pistols, it would be safe to say that the majority of those hits were poorly placed.
Far out, didn't know the cops still had those.
There is a very small department in the middle of Florida and they have made very effective use of the DoD computer databases that link up with the federal LEOs. This tiny town police dept of no more than a dozen serving officers boasts twenty select fire M16's, a similar number of H&K MP5's, grenade launchers and (get this) THREE UH-1H "Huey" choppers! Why would they need all of that? Because they can get it, free. They don't have the personnel to fly or maintain the choppers but they've got the birds. Talk about militarization of the police dept! I think that one of the networks did a profile on this dept. some time ago and I'm pretty sure it was pre-911. I wonder what toys they have accrued in light of the terror threat? Because I'm pretty sure that their pre-911 aresenal was directed by the Clinton White House and the intended targets were the American People. If that is what small town America has become, I shudder to think of what could happen in the metro areas.
Everyone able to handle, shoot, and maintain a firearm should have a firearm, at least a rifle and a handgun. There is a town in Georgia I think (I heard about this wayy back in 2003) where its the law for people to have a firearm.
A lot of police chiefs around the country don't have a problem with putting responsible, law abiding citizens in this position. How does it feel?
They should consider moving to a .40 cal and a .30 cal. Firearms really should go bang bang, not pop pop.
Remember the LA shootout with the two bank robbers armed with fully automatic AKs and the cops being unable to take them down? The cops went to a local gun store and borrowed some AR-15s, which didn't seem to work much better than their 9 mm weapons, and ignored 1 or 2 M1-As. If they'd used the M1-As, they could have shot right thorugh the perps' body armor and taken them out in a few minutes.
Yeah, I remember the Pinto, and also the rigged Chevy truck (I believe it was ABC News, maybe 20/20, that rigged the Chevy with explosives to help their ratings).
As far as the Jeep though, I don't know how many incidents there have been, but we had a particularly bad accident here in Atlanta a few years back. A man was driving down I-75 in a grand Cherokee with his family near the city when the traffic suddenly slowed and stopped. A Mexican in a Ford Thunderbird didn't stop in time and rear-ended the Grand Cherokee. The nose of the Thunderbird went under the Jeep's bumper and burst the gas tank, causing an immediate and rapidly engulfing fire.
A trucker stopped and was able to get the man out, but if memory serves, was not able to get the guy's wife or baby in a car seat in the back, out of the vehicle. I remember seeing the trucker almost crying as he related the incident on the local news. If I remember right, I believe the man that was driving his family in the Jeep later died in the hospital.
I can't remember any other incidents off hand, so maybe I'm offbase suggesting that there's a real problem here, but just look at the design. It looks like the gas tank hangs way too low and that the bumper offers little, if any, protection.
'Course, it also might be that I don't like Chrysler products :)
I wear a hat just like a mounty.. I'm the sheriff of Booooooone County.
Let me tell ya boy, you in a heap a trouble boy."
;-)
The whole song as sung by Kenny Price (1970)
SHERIFF OF BOONE COUNTY
(Elson Smith - Frank Marusa)
« © '70 Hardtack Music »
[chorus]
Yeah I don't take no lip with this cannon on my hip
Let me tell you boy it ain't no toy
I wear a hat just like a mounty I'm the sheriff of Boone County
Be careful boy cause you're in a heap of a trouble boy
If you're tryin' to push your Caddy from Nashville to Cincinnati..
You have to come across Boone County line
As you're drivin' through you better mind your P's and Q's..
Cause this here stretch of interstate, boy, is mine
Now you might outrun my old Chevrolet but you can't outrun my own two way
Lion's awaitin' at the station to hear from me.
Now you're gonna be a wishin' I believed in extradition
Cause I'll chase you all the way back to Tennesee
[chorus]
Yeah I don't take no lip with this cannon on my hip
Let me tell you boy it ain't no toy.
I wear a hat just like a mounty I'm the sheriff of Boone County.
Be careful, boy, cause you're in a heap of a trouble boy
[ steel ]
So far I guess you been lucky but now you're in Boone County Kentucky.
And I don't know how things are in Tennessee.
I'm the roughest you ever saw around here I'm the law
And it's been that way since back in '43
[chorus]
Yeah I don't take no lip with this cannon on my hip
Let me tell you boy it ain't no toy.
I wear a hat just like a mounty I'm the sheriff of Boone County
Be careful, boy, cause you're in a heap of a trouble boy
[Talk to fadeout]
(I run the grocery store down there and I pump the gas and I'm the dogcatcher too yeah
The judge that's me put up your bond for you if you like
And if you happen to wreck your car on the way to the courthouse)
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