Posted on 12/06/2004 12:44:58 PM PST by Lindykim
"Is it morally and theologically acceptable to hope anyone goes to hell? ... One...need not be a conservative Christian to believe in some form of hell for the evil. All one need be is a rational believer in a just God. For if there is a just God, it is inconceivable that those who do evil and those who do good have identical fates. A just God must care about justice, and since there is little justice in this world, there has to be in the next. And belief in the next world is also not confined to Christianity. As the Encyclopedia Judaica ... (edited largely by non-religious Jews) notes in the first sentence under the heading 'Afterlife,' 'Judaism has always believed in an afterlife.' ... Much of humanity has been adversely affected by modern-day terror. The lives of millions -- virtually all Palestinians and Israelis, for example -- have been terribly affected by Arafat. And there are hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been destroyed or shattered by him. At the same time, other than a few sycophants enriched by some of the billions of dollars he embezzled from the Palestinians, no one has had a better life because Yasser Arafat lived. ... Yasser Arafat single-handedly made nihilistic acts of cruelty routine, even respectable. ... Thanks to him, the Palestinian name is identified among people of goodwill with barbarity just as the German name came to be associated with barbarity as a result of Hitler. ... Just as any decent human being would want good people to be rewarded in whatever existence there is after this life, they would want the cruelest of people to be punished. So, of course, I hope Yasser Arafat is in hell. ... If you think that is hard-hearted, consider the alternative, that one of the most corrupt and cruel human beings of the past half-century is resting in peace. Whoever isn't bothered by that is the one with the hard heart." --Dennis Prager
It certainly doesn't mean every single Catholic person, priest, bishop or pope is going to make every decision flawlessly and live a life without error or sin. It is easy to attck strawmen, much harder to study and understand first what it is you reject with caricature and ignorance.
SD
I'd rather be a faithful Christian true to the gospel of Jesus Christ , true to Him, than be true to the Catholic Church any day of the week. God is not going to judge me or anyone else on how faithful they are to the Magisterium of the Church but on how faithful we are to Him and how we implement His Word into our lives. Let me tell you most people who are really Christians feel the same way.
I am from Harford County.
Dear DarthVader,
"If you believe that being a Catholic and that only being Catholic is the main or only requirement to being saved,..."
Well, that isn't quite what I said. What I DID say was that in being baptized validly, everyone becomes a member, even if imperfectly, of the Catholic Church. That includes even Protestants!
And the Catholic Church does teach that generally baptism is required for salvation.
"and that Catholicism is the only way to Christ then yes I will regard you as unsaved, disobedient to the Bible, and also a heretic to Christianity."
I'm not sure I said that, either. I think that there are plenty of denominations of Christianity. And the Catholic Church recognizes that these denominations contain parts of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Thus, these denominations can certainly lead to the Jesus, and greater embrace of the Body of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church.
However, I will note that you mark as unsaved those who adhere to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, albeit that your view of that Magisterium isn't quite accurate.
Thus, from your perspective, "good" Catholics, as defined as Catholics who actually believe and obey what the Catholic Church teaches and binds, are damned. Or at least as long as they remain good Catholics.
That's sort of interesting. ;-)
sitetest
It certainly leads one to wonder why one would hang out with a bunch of people who were following a damned, heretical form of Christianity!
What kind of witness is that? Don't you fear that your presence in your Catholic parish is sending the wrong kind of message about what the Church teaches and how aceptable it is?
SD
Thus, from your perspective, "good" Catholics, as defined as Catholics who actually believe and obey what the Catholic Church teaches and binds, are damned. Or at least as long as they remain good Catholics.
Let me clarify this I would regard anyone that tells anyone that they would have to be a Catholic and only be a Catholic to be a Christian to be a heretic. To take that position would be a rejection of Biblical Christianity. Anyone who would call them selves a Christian would encourage anyone to receive Jesus Christ as their savior, repent of their sins, and go to ANY good Bible believing Church no matter what sect they are in.
Not really I believe that Catholics no matter imperfect they are to Biblical Christianity once they have become born again are put into Christ's Body. You must be baptized with water and you must the be baptized with Holy Spirit. Because Catholicism contains only parts of the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ too. Remember only God's Word and only God's Word is infallible. If Catholic teaching or the teaching of any denomination goes against Scripture it is to be refuted and ignored. Let's talk about the subject of priest being able to marry. There is the biggest piece of Non-Biblical nonsense I have ever seen and it is a false doctrine which is destroying the Catholic Church. If you want argue this I will only listen to or accept arguements that are based upon passages in the Bible. No doctrinal position or anything made up by man will be listened too. I can back this up with Scripture from many books.
SD,
Jesus said in one His parables that his people would be like wheat growing in a field surrounded by weeds (which are heretics, unbelievers, the spiritually indifferent, etc.)God knows those who are true to Him and would collect them. Believe me most Catholics I know are true to the principles of Christianity and many of them who read their Bibles which is being encouraged from the pulpit, disagree with some of the teachings of the Church if it conflicts with Scripture. This a good thing that people find these things out for themselves. My parish priest is a great guy who encourages people to follow Christ no matter how you choose to as long as you further His cause.
Dear DarthVader,
"Let me clarify this I would regard anyone that tells anyone that they would have to be a Catholic and only be a Catholic to be a Christian to be a heretic."
Well, I think I sort of said the obverse of this: that anyone who is baptized a Christian is a member of the Catholic Church, even if imperfectly so.
"Not really I believe that Catholics no matter imperfect they are to Biblical Christianity once they have become born again are put into Christ's Body."
Everyone who is validly baptized is "born again"(or "born from above"). That is whether one is baptized in the Catholic Church or baptized by the local preacher down by the river.
You seem to be negating the sacramental effect of baptism.
That is another point that differentiates you from Catholics.
"Because Catholicism contains only parts of the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ too."
Well, here again, you depart from what knowledgeable, good Catholics believe, as we certainly believe that the Catholic Church contains the entire Deposit of Faith, the fullness of truth of Jesus Christ.
"Let's talk about the subject of priest being able to marry. There is the biggest piece of Non-Biblical nonsense I have ever seen and it is a false doctrine which is destroying the Catholic Church."
That's nice.
Except for one point.
It isn't a doctrine.
It's a discipline.
And it's not even a discipline applicable to the entire Catholic Church, or even imposed without exception in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. So, we probably should skip that one in that, it not actually being a doctrine, even if you were to prove it is not biblical, that would leave you with very little at all.
"If you want argue this I will only listen to or accept arguements that are based upon passages in the Bible."
Well, I have said repeatedly, no, I don't really want to argue this. You said you're a Catholic.
We started this conversation because of some comments I made about Purgatory. You don't believe in Purgatory, even though you think you're a Catholic.
I'm only pointing out that you don't believe the things required of Catholics. After that, you're pretty much projecting your own issues onto my postings.
As to using the passages of the Bible, well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms! ;-)
First, Catholic that you profess to be, do you accept the Catholic Bible or the Protestant Bible?
But, don't worry, you don't have to answer that. Because I don't really want to have a big debate, anyway. Even though you call yourself a Catholic, there are two things in you that I don't see: Catholic Faith; or even a basic understanding of Catholic Faith.
That is my only point.
sitetest
Well, I think I sort of said the obverse of this: that anyone who is baptized a Christian is a member of the Catholic Church, even if imperfectly so.
I believe you are wrong and that is a false teaching inherent to Biblical Christianity and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Being a member of the Roman Catholic Church has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Everyone who is validly baptized is "born again"(or "born from above"). That is whether one is baptized in the Catholic Church or baptized by the local preacher down by the river.
You seem to be negating the sacramental effect of baptism.
That is another point that differentiates you from Catholics."
I believe as you do on this point. But you must also be serious about this when you do it. You negate the sacramental or spiritual effect if your heart is not right before God.
"Well, here again, you depart from what knowledgeable, good Catholics believe, as we certainly believe that the Catholic Church contains the entire Deposit of Faith, the fullness of truth of Jesus Christ."
The Catholic Church used to have the entire Deposit of Faith. It is a far cry of what it used to be. A lot of it was lost due to infestation of liberalism and secular humanism that unfortunately has afflicted some of our Catholic brethren. However it is coming back through evangelical revival and the Charismatic renewal.
"We started this conversation because of some comments I made about Purgatory. You don't believe in Purgatory, even though you think you're a Catholic."
I am a Christian before I am a Catholic and every Christian who is in good standing with Jesus Christ if he/she is mature about should be able to acknowledge this no matter what sect they are in. There is NO I REPEAT NO Scriptural reference to Purgatory. NOWHERE! NADA! If you cannot find it in the Scriptures it does not exist and there is no basis of truth whatsoever. Any doctrine or dogma that is not based upon the Scriptures is a false teaching and a lie. The Catholic Church should renounce this teaching or it will face judgement from God.
"It isn't a doctrine.
It's a discipline. "
Well in spite of that it is still killing the Catholic Church. A Catholic friend of mine from Michigan told me that
69 out of 100 plus churches in Detroit have shut down because they don't have the priests to staff them. I have friends who are priests too and they say it is really putting a hurt on their numbers. Old priests are dying out and the influx of new one 's is not as high. It is the old law of supply and demand.
"First, Catholic that you profess to be, do you accept the Catholic Bible or the Protestant Bible?"
Both, the Catholic Bible has some interesting books that should be universally accepted as the generic Holy Scriptures.
"But, don't worry, you don't have to answer that. Because I don't really want to have a big debate, anyway. Even though you call yourself a Catholic, there are two things in you that I don't see: Catholic Faith; or even a basic understanding of Catholic Faith."
I am glad to hear you say that:-)It shows me that God has set me free from some of the poverty of weak and ineffective doctrines of men. I am a Christian and a person of God first. Catholiscm is the faith of my European forefathers and it served them well. But today my simple Bibically based faith is extremely powerful and has the raw primitive power of God in it. He has shown me enough of the truth that I can do away with certain things as Paul did. I trust God implicitly and do my absolute best to obey Him and that has to do with my personal relationship with Him. When we die God is not gonna be too concerned about how well you followed Catholic Church doctrine and how much you know about it. He is gonna judge us on how many people we help in this life, how many people we bring to Jesus Christ, how well we use our gifts and talents to edify and raise up the body of Christ and advance His kingdom on earth. When you meditate, think and act on doing these things Catholic doctine is just not that important to the big scheme of the kingdom of God.
Another thing! Your rigid Roman Catholicism and intellectulism has prevented you from fully experiencing the real liberating power of God's love, forgiveness, favor, and true freedom from sin. I only have pity on you.
You know nothing of the sort. This is a truly ignorant statement.
I'm happy you've found a relationship with God, but it should not give you a license to judge others' relationships with Him. But I guess once one takes it upon himself to be the final infallible arbiter of what is authentic doctrine and what is not, it is a small step to judging others' relationships based upon what creeds they hold.
It's good you had a pleasant experience with God. God is definitely experential. And Catholics don't deny that. But we also believe that He wants us to know Him in Truth, and has brought that to us in a knowable way.
SD
Absolutely not!
Except for Michael Moore, Paul Begala, John Conyers, Jessay and Nancy Pelosi.
I do know and that is a gift from the Holy Spirit. But some people who have been eating at Mcdonalds all their life and who have not experienced Ruth Chris wouldn't know what one of their filet mignons is like and wouldn't be able to decsribe their experiece is like.
Dear DarthVader,
"I believe you are wrong and that is a false teaching inherent to Biblical Christianity and the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
I interpret this to mean that you believe it is a false teaching of the Catholic Church, not inherent to "Biblical Christianity...".
If that is the case, then that is another point of separation between you and the Catholic Church.
"I believe as you do on this point. But you must also be serious about this when you do it. You negate the sacramental or spiritual effect if your heart is not right before God."
Well, then, all who are validly baptized are Christians, no? Isn't that pretty much all Catholics?
As for being "serious," most Catholics are baptized as infants. Are not infants validly baptized?
"The Catholic Church used to have the entire Deposit of Faith. It is a far cry of what it used to be. A lot of it was lost due to infestation of liberalism and secular humanism that unfortunately has afflicted some of our Catholic brethren. However it is coming back through evangelical revival and the Charismatic renewal."
If it had it in the past, it still does. The doctrine of the Catholic Church doesn't change. Even though the administration of the Church may be "infested with liberalism and securlar humanism," nonetheless, the actual teaching of the Catholic Church hasn't changed.
By the way, when did the Catholic Church, in your view, have the entire Deposit of Faith?
"There is NO I REPEAT NO Scriptural reference to Purgatory. NOWHERE! NADA!"
"Both, the Catholic Bible has some interesting books that should be universally accepted as the generic Holy Scriptures."
If you accept the Catholic canon, then you accept the Books of the Maccabees. In which case, you accept that there is Scripture where those Jews who are following God's ways, God's laws, pray for the dead.
If one may pray for the dead, there must be some reason to pray for them. It must in some way assist them. But if they're already engaged completely of the Beatific Vision, then there is no way your prayers could assist them. And if they're already in Hell, your prayers don't help, either. If praying for the dead assists the dead, then you have essentially vindicated the Catholic teaching of Purgatory.
And if you accept the Catholic canon of the Bible, the Purgatory is scripturally-based.
DarthVader, it is logically inconsistent to reject the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, which is drawn from the Catholic canon of Scripture, and to accept the Catholic canon of Scripture.
When Martin Luther rejected the teaching of Purgatory, he was able to do so in part because he rejected the Catholic canon of the Old Testament, and embraced the 1st Century, post-Christian Jewish canon thereof.
You will need to resolve your beliefs there. Either - no Catholic canon of Scripture, or - belief in Purgatory. Take your pick.
"I am a Christian before I am a Catholic..."
Well, if I were you, I'd go easy on the claim of being Catholic, whether first or second.
But again, in saying what you say, you reject Catholic teaching. According to Catholic teaching, Catholicism isn't one of any number of Christian denominations. It is the Church Christ founded.
When you state that you are Christian first before you are a Catholic, you negate Catholicism.
"Catholiscm is the faith of my European forefathers and it served them well."
Then Catholicism is more of a cultural thing for you, not an actual faith or belief system.
In that way, you are precisely the same as John Kerry.
The only difference is that your actual belief system varies from his.
But neither of you believes as a Catholic.
sitetest
Dear DarthVader,
"Another thing! Your rigid Roman Catholicism and intellectulism has prevented you from fully experiencing the real liberating power of God's love, forgiveness, favor, and true freedom from sin. I only have pity on you."
* chuckle *
I think your words tell us a lot more about you than about me.
sitetest
The gift of the spirit is called the Word Of Knowledge and the Discernment of Spirits which are two of the charismatta of the Holy Spirit outlined in 1 Corinth 12. I use these in prison ministry and the minstry of others and they have never failed me to show what a person's spiritual condition is in the 12 years I have had it. You ought to watch what you say and not get involved in matters that do not concern yourself.
I am a very happy, well to do and fulfilled person.
Your sarcasm only reveals to me that I hit a nerve with you. The gifts I have from God never lie.
Dear DarthVader,
"I am a very happy, well to do and fulfilled person."
Well, we are not so alike.
I mourn, am poor in spirit, and thirst for righteousness and hunger for justice.
sitetest
I said some of the Books, not all of them.
What's a "Patiot"?
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