Well, I think I sort of said the obverse of this: that anyone who is baptized a Christian is a member of the Catholic Church, even if imperfectly so.
I believe you are wrong and that is a false teaching inherent to Biblical Christianity and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Being a member of the Roman Catholic Church has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Everyone who is validly baptized is "born again"(or "born from above"). That is whether one is baptized in the Catholic Church or baptized by the local preacher down by the river.
You seem to be negating the sacramental effect of baptism.
That is another point that differentiates you from Catholics."
I believe as you do on this point. But you must also be serious about this when you do it. You negate the sacramental or spiritual effect if your heart is not right before God.
"Well, here again, you depart from what knowledgeable, good Catholics believe, as we certainly believe that the Catholic Church contains the entire Deposit of Faith, the fullness of truth of Jesus Christ."
The Catholic Church used to have the entire Deposit of Faith. It is a far cry of what it used to be. A lot of it was lost due to infestation of liberalism and secular humanism that unfortunately has afflicted some of our Catholic brethren. However it is coming back through evangelical revival and the Charismatic renewal.
"We started this conversation because of some comments I made about Purgatory. You don't believe in Purgatory, even though you think you're a Catholic."
I am a Christian before I am a Catholic and every Christian who is in good standing with Jesus Christ if he/she is mature about should be able to acknowledge this no matter what sect they are in. There is NO I REPEAT NO Scriptural reference to Purgatory. NOWHERE! NADA! If you cannot find it in the Scriptures it does not exist and there is no basis of truth whatsoever. Any doctrine or dogma that is not based upon the Scriptures is a false teaching and a lie. The Catholic Church should renounce this teaching or it will face judgement from God.
"It isn't a doctrine.
It's a discipline. "
Well in spite of that it is still killing the Catholic Church. A Catholic friend of mine from Michigan told me that
69 out of 100 plus churches in Detroit have shut down because they don't have the priests to staff them. I have friends who are priests too and they say it is really putting a hurt on their numbers. Old priests are dying out and the influx of new one 's is not as high. It is the old law of supply and demand.
"First, Catholic that you profess to be, do you accept the Catholic Bible or the Protestant Bible?"
Both, the Catholic Bible has some interesting books that should be universally accepted as the generic Holy Scriptures.
"But, don't worry, you don't have to answer that. Because I don't really want to have a big debate, anyway. Even though you call yourself a Catholic, there are two things in you that I don't see: Catholic Faith; or even a basic understanding of Catholic Faith."
I am glad to hear you say that:-)It shows me that God has set me free from some of the poverty of weak and ineffective doctrines of men. I am a Christian and a person of God first. Catholiscm is the faith of my European forefathers and it served them well. But today my simple Bibically based faith is extremely powerful and has the raw primitive power of God in it. He has shown me enough of the truth that I can do away with certain things as Paul did. I trust God implicitly and do my absolute best to obey Him and that has to do with my personal relationship with Him. When we die God is not gonna be too concerned about how well you followed Catholic Church doctrine and how much you know about it. He is gonna judge us on how many people we help in this life, how many people we bring to Jesus Christ, how well we use our gifts and talents to edify and raise up the body of Christ and advance His kingdom on earth. When you meditate, think and act on doing these things Catholic doctine is just not that important to the big scheme of the kingdom of God.
Dear DarthVader,
"I believe you are wrong and that is a false teaching inherent to Biblical Christianity and the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
I interpret this to mean that you believe it is a false teaching of the Catholic Church, not inherent to "Biblical Christianity...".
If that is the case, then that is another point of separation between you and the Catholic Church.
"I believe as you do on this point. But you must also be serious about this when you do it. You negate the sacramental or spiritual effect if your heart is not right before God."
Well, then, all who are validly baptized are Christians, no? Isn't that pretty much all Catholics?
As for being "serious," most Catholics are baptized as infants. Are not infants validly baptized?
"The Catholic Church used to have the entire Deposit of Faith. It is a far cry of what it used to be. A lot of it was lost due to infestation of liberalism and secular humanism that unfortunately has afflicted some of our Catholic brethren. However it is coming back through evangelical revival and the Charismatic renewal."
If it had it in the past, it still does. The doctrine of the Catholic Church doesn't change. Even though the administration of the Church may be "infested with liberalism and securlar humanism," nonetheless, the actual teaching of the Catholic Church hasn't changed.
By the way, when did the Catholic Church, in your view, have the entire Deposit of Faith?
"There is NO I REPEAT NO Scriptural reference to Purgatory. NOWHERE! NADA!"
"Both, the Catholic Bible has some interesting books that should be universally accepted as the generic Holy Scriptures."
If you accept the Catholic canon, then you accept the Books of the Maccabees. In which case, you accept that there is Scripture where those Jews who are following God's ways, God's laws, pray for the dead.
If one may pray for the dead, there must be some reason to pray for them. It must in some way assist them. But if they're already engaged completely of the Beatific Vision, then there is no way your prayers could assist them. And if they're already in Hell, your prayers don't help, either. If praying for the dead assists the dead, then you have essentially vindicated the Catholic teaching of Purgatory.
And if you accept the Catholic canon of the Bible, the Purgatory is scripturally-based.
DarthVader, it is logically inconsistent to reject the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, which is drawn from the Catholic canon of Scripture, and to accept the Catholic canon of Scripture.
When Martin Luther rejected the teaching of Purgatory, he was able to do so in part because he rejected the Catholic canon of the Old Testament, and embraced the 1st Century, post-Christian Jewish canon thereof.
You will need to resolve your beliefs there. Either - no Catholic canon of Scripture, or - belief in Purgatory. Take your pick.
"I am a Christian before I am a Catholic..."
Well, if I were you, I'd go easy on the claim of being Catholic, whether first or second.
But again, in saying what you say, you reject Catholic teaching. According to Catholic teaching, Catholicism isn't one of any number of Christian denominations. It is the Church Christ founded.
When you state that you are Christian first before you are a Catholic, you negate Catholicism.
"Catholiscm is the faith of my European forefathers and it served them well."
Then Catholicism is more of a cultural thing for you, not an actual faith or belief system.
In that way, you are precisely the same as John Kerry.
The only difference is that your actual belief system varies from his.
But neither of you believes as a Catholic.
sitetest