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When Vietnam vets came home (Soldiers being spit on is just an urban myth)
News and Observer ^ | Nov 10, 2004 | JOHN LLEWELLYN

Posted on 11/10/2004 3:35:05 PM PST by mykdsmom

WINSTON-SALEM -- Last week voters went to the polls to select a vision for the future. Now Americans must find a way forward together. This week, as we honor service and sacrifice on Veterans Day, an image from this political season must be put to rest.

The presidential campaign featured the resurgence of a myth from the early 1990s. That myth is that soldiers returning from Vietnam were spit upon by citizens or war protesters. That claim has been used to turn honest differences of opinion about the war into toxic indictments.

As a scholar of urban legends I am usually involved with accounts of vanishing hitchhikers and involuntary kidney donors. These stories are folklore that harmlessly reveals the public imagination. However, accounts of citizens spitting on returning soldiers -- any nation's soldiers -- are not harmless stories. These tales evoke an emotional firestorm.

I have studied urban legends for nearly 20 years and have been certified as an expert on the subject in the federal courts. Nonetheless, it dawned on me only recently that the spitting story was a rumor that has grown into an urban legend. I never wanted to believe the story but I was afraid to investigate it for fear that it could be true.

Why could I not identify this fiction sooner? The power of the story and the passion of its advocates offer a powerful alchemy of guilt and fear -- emotions not associated with clearheadedness.

Labeling the spitting story an urban legend does not mean that something of this sort did not happen to someone somewhere. You cannot prove the negative -- that something never happened. However, most accounts of spitting emerged in the mid-1980s only after a newspaper columnist asked his readers who were Vietnam vets if they had been spit upon after the war (an odd and leading question to ask a decade after the war's end). The framing of the question seemed to beg for an affirmative answer.

• • •

In 1998 sociologist and Vietnam veteran Jerry Lembcke published "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." He recounts a study of 495 news stories on returning veterans published from 1965 to 1971. That study shows only a handful (32) of instances were presented as in any way antagonistic to the soldiers. There were no instances of spitting on soldiers; what spitting was reported was done by citizens expressing displeasure with protesters.

Opinion polls of the time show no animosity between soldiers and opponents of the war. Only 3 percent of returning soldiers recounted any unfriendly experiences upon their return.

So records from that era offer no support for the spitting stories. Lembcke's research does show that similar spitting rumors arose in Germany after World War I and in France after its Indochina war. One of the persistent markers of urban legends is the re-emergence of certain themes across time and space.

There is also a common-sense method for debunking this urban legend. One frequent test is the story's plausibility: how likely is it that the incident could have happened as described? Do we really believe that a "dirty hippie" would spit upon a fit and trained soldier? If such a confrontation had occurred, would that combat-hardened soldier have just ignored the insult? Would there not be pictures, arrest reports, a trial record or a coroner's report after such an event? Years of research have produced no such records.

Lembcke underscores the enduring significance of the spitting story for this Veterans Day. He observes that as a society we are what we remember. The meaning of Vietnam and any other war is not static but is created through the stories we tell one another. To reinforce the principle that policy disagreements are not personal vendettas we must put this story to rest.

Our first step forward is to recognize that we are not a society that disrespects the sacrifices of our servicemembers. We should ignore anyone who tries to tell us otherwise. Whatever our aspirations for America, those hopes must begin with a clear awareness of who we are not.

(John Llewellyn is an associate professor of communication at Wake Forest University.)


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: academiccesspool; dorkofwakeforest; hanoijohnnyacademic; idioteducator; incivility; leftspeak; liberalcollege; myth; politicalcorrectness; spit; spitspeaksvolumes; vietnamveterans; whaledungexpert
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To: mykdsmom
My husband was killed in Laos in 1966. I was left with three boys under 6. Many people were very kind to us,especially to me,aat least to my face. However,the general overall attitude of the general population was not.

Three years after Dick was killed I moved to a middle income neighborhood populated by many mid-level government bureaucrats and school teachers. Most people had at least an undergraduate degree.

My children entered a new school which they said they liked but they also seemed to be a little less enthusiastic about school than they had been. Several months into the semester I had Parent/Teacher conferences. The night before the two older boys came into tell me that they had told everyone that their parents were divorced and they did not want me to tell the teachers anything different.

I couldn't believe it and asked them why they would tell a lie and added that they should be very proud of their father. The younger one started to cry and said that the kids said "daddy was a baby killer" and the older one said "yes,and they said soldiers were pigs and killers so we just decided to say that you got a divorce". I didn't quiz them on the particulars since it wasn't going to change what they had perceived.

I told them to tell the truth,their dad had died because he believed America was a great country and needed to help people make their countries great too. I added that he died to assure that their school chums and their parents would remain free to continue living the nice lives they were living. I left it at that.

561 posted on 11/12/2004 8:17:46 PM PST by saradippity
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To: saradippity
I am SO sorry for what you had to endure. Some of your boys must be about my age, I was born in 1961. It is incomprehensible to me that your sons could be treated this way.

The only thing we can change about the past is to PROMISE that it will not happen again. I sincerely believe that the ememies of our country (a lot of them are US citizens currently living in our country) are trying their damedest to turn the Iraq war into another Vietnam. We will NOT let that happen again!

I hope God has blessed you and your family and you have been able to find some peace since the death of your husband. God bless all of our Vets and their families.

MKM

562 posted on 11/12/2004 9:11:19 PM PST by mykdsmom
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To: RaceBannon
Thanks for posting this. I see that the N & O has in the past 2 days required an e-mail and password to see the entire site. Trust me, this was never required in the past.

I am a subscriber to the N & O (unfortunately) and I still can't access the website. I did see this letter to the editor this am and hadn't figured out a way to avoid the inevitable spam yet.

I've decided that I will sign up for a dummy e-mail account so I can access the online version in the future.

MKM

563 posted on 11/12/2004 9:17:07 PM PST by mykdsmom
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To: sonofagun
NOPE. you were just LUCKY!

free dixie,sw

564 posted on 11/13/2004 9:15:23 AM PST by stand watie ( being a damnyankee is no better than being a racist. it is a LEARNED prejudice against dixie.)
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To: stands2reason
figures. he was JUST LUCKY, i'd guess.

free dixie,sw

565 posted on 11/13/2004 9:15:58 AM PST by stand watie ( being a damnyankee is no better than being a racist. it is a LEARNED prejudice against dixie.)
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To: mykdsmom
In 1971, wail going through Aviation service schools at NAS Memphis, I flew up to Lansing, MI in uniform "USMC"(half fare/military stand-by. Still in uniform wail walking across Michigan State U's campus. I had rocks and insults of baby killer thrown my way. Hell, I hadn't even went to Nam yet. Learned to change to civies at the airport upon arrival. Even when coming or going which I did twice to Nam, out of Uniform nothing more happened to me. But people knew I was a service person and generally were cold and non friendlily. I remember talking to other marines back then, that did have bad $hit happen when they came back, pre-70.

My take. who cares. That was then, This is now!!!
566 posted on 11/13/2004 2:06:53 PM PST by OldSgt. (USMC, Nam Vet, HMM-165)
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To: Gibtx

Welcome home, soldier. And thanks.


567 posted on 11/16/2004 11:36:35 AM PST by jim35 (I'll bet Dasshole is Deeply Saddened now!!!)
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To: mykdsmom

More revisionist history. If you don't like history the way it was, just make up your own. It's either that or this guy's been smokin' too much weed, and the little grey cells are shot.


568 posted on 11/16/2004 4:30:44 PM PST by Yankereb
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To: mykdsmom

As a Vietnam veteran I have to admit I have alway believed this story was a myth. I don't know a single veteran who wouldn't have literally killed anyone who spit on him. Anti-war protestors were nuts but they weren't suicidal. I found the more prevalent attitude was to be ignored, dismissed, or treated with disdain. The up side was that a good number of girls on campus thought it was cool to take a trophy Vietnam veteran to parties as her date. I was more than willing to comply.


569 posted on 11/16/2004 4:45:46 PM PST by Casloy
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To: mfulstone

I won't call you a liar to your face, but I will say that maybe it suits your needs to deny reality? My husband was spit upon. He was asked if he killed any babies. He was beaten to a pulp by the Seaside police department for wearing an upside down flag patch. (a sign that he returned from the war) The cops saw his long hair and the patch as a sign of disrespect for their "brothers" that were serving. And it's no wonder my husband wouldn't even open his mouth and tell them he was there, even to stop the beating. Because of ignorant people like you that cause secondary wounding to our nations heroes!


570 posted on 12/21/2004 3:33:19 AM PST by combatptsd
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To: mfulstone

I won't call you a liar to your face, but I will say that maybe it suits your needs to deny reality? My husband was spit upon. He was asked if he killed any babies. He was beaten to a pulp by the Seaside police department for wearing an upside down flag patch. (a sign that he returned from the war) The cops saw his long hair and the patch as a sign of disrespect for their "brothers" that were serving. And it's no wonder my husband wouldn't even open his mouth and tell them he was there, even to stop the beating. Because of ignorant people like you that cause secondary wounding to our nations heroes!


571 posted on 12/21/2004 3:34:14 AM PST by combatptsd
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To: RaceBannon

Don't waste your time.

These people are proud to be ignorant. They want to see themselves and their views in a more positive way. Hence they must rewrite history to suit them.

Some today, like even Kerry, are confronted with the truth of their past, and they don’t like it. So they redefine the intent, the motives of their actions. I threw my “ribbons”………

My father in law was in Vietnam. He was physically assaulted and spit upon on his return to Ohio. You don’t need to look hard or long to find THOUSANDS who were treated wrongly because of a sub culture in society which thought they were “cool”, “tough”, “rebellious” and somehow “moral” because the treated their own people who were doing their duty like this. People such as those who deny this and rewrite history also are the ones who deny the holocaust. They ask the questions they want to ask. Formulate them just right. Ask the people they select to be questioned and interpret the data the way they want.

Red6


572 posted on 12/21/2004 3:52:34 AM PST by Red6
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To: Billthedrill

I was not spit on or heckled when I came home but, then, I was told to change into civvies before I got on the flight to SF and to not show anything to identify me as military and I came on a civilian flight with only half a dozen other separating GIs. My GI haircut got some looks, though.


573 posted on 12/21/2004 4:01:17 AM PST by arthurus (Better to fight them over THERE than over HERE.)
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To: mykdsmom

I returned in July '67 and stopped in LA for a visit with a relative. Gave myself a night on the town and went to the Sunset Strip. At Whiskey a Go Go (or some such) I had no problem. I was hooted out of another bar.

On the street, two young gays in a car offered me some money. A middle-aged gay, walking his dog, offered me his hospitality.

The best I was treated was back home in NYC and I was treated rather well.

How you were treated depended much on where you were.


574 posted on 12/21/2004 4:36:53 AM PST by decimon
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To: mykdsmom

Well I will add a comment to this old thread because just today I talked to a woman who married a West Point Graduate. One of her comments was about how when he was at West Point in 71-72 and they went into New York. They were spit on. He said that it was one of the worst experiences of his entire life. I guess the author did not did too deeply or research too much. I know there were a wealth of other posts but I wanted to add one more.


575 posted on 01/20/2005 7:43:36 PM PST by cid89
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To: mykdsmom

Bookmarking


576 posted on 02/07/2005 12:20:20 PM PST by squarebarb
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JULIE WEAVER
AN OPEN LETTER TO ANYONE WHO SERVED IN VIETNAM
Dear Hero,

I was in my twenties during the Vietnam era. I was a single mother and, I'm sad to say, I was probably one of the most self-centered people on the planet. To be perfectly honest, I didn't care one way or the other about the war. All I cared about was me; how I looked, what I wore, and where I was going. I worked and I played. I was never politically involved in anything, but I allowed my opinions to be formed by the media. It happened without my ever being aware. I listened to the protest songs and I watch the six o'clock news and I listened to all the people who were talking. After awhile, I began to repeat their words and, if you were to ask me, I'd have told you I was against the war. It was very popular. Everyone was doing it, and we never saw what it was doing to our men. All we were shown was what they were doing to the people of Vietnam.

My brother joined the Navy and then he was sent to Vietnam. When he came home, I repeated the words to him. It surprised me at how angry he became. I hurt him very deeply and there were years of separation - not only of miles, but also of character. I didn't understand.

In fact, I didn't understand anything until one day I opened my newspaper and saw the anguished face of a Vietnam veteran. The picture was taken at the opening of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, D.C. His countenance revealed the terrible burden of his soul. As I looked at his picture and his tears, I finally understood a tiny portion of what you had given for us and what we had done to you. I understood that I had been manipulated, but I also knew that I had failed to think for myself. It was like waking up out of a nightmare, except that the nightmare was real. I didn't know what to do.

One day about three years ago, I went to a member of the church I attended at that time, because he had served in Vietnam. I asked him if he had been in Vietnam, and he got a look on his face and said, "Yes." Then, I took his hand, looked him square in the face, and said, "Thank you for going." His jaw dropped, he got an amazed look on his face, and then he said, "No one has ever said that to me." He hugged me and I could see that he was about to get tears in his eyes. It gave me an idea, because there is much more that needs to be said. How do we put into words, all the regret of so many years? I don't know, but when I have an opportunity, I take, so here goes.

Have you been to Vietnam? If so, I have something I want to say to you - Thank you for going! Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Please forgive me for my insensitivity. I don't know how I could have been so blind, but I was. When I woke up, you were wounded and the damage was done, and I don't know how to fix it. I will never stop regretting my actions, and I will never let it happen again.

Please understand that I am speaking for the general public also. We know we blew it and we don't know how to make it up to you. We wish we had been there for you when you came home from Vietnam because you were a hero and you deserved better. Inside of you there is a pain that will never completely go away. And you know what? It's inside of us, too; because when we let you down, we hurt ourselves, too. We all know it, and we suffer guilt and we don't know what to do. So we cheer for our troops and write letters to "any soldier" and we hang out the yellow ribbons and fly the flag and we love America. We love you too, even if it doesn't feel like it to you. I know in my heart that, when we cheer wildly for our troops, part of the reason is trying to make up for Vietnam. And while it may work for us, it does nothing for you. We failed you. You didn't fail us, but we failed you and we lost our only chance to be grateful to you at the time when you needed and deserved it. We have disgraced ourselves and brought shame to our country. We did it and we need your forgiveness. Please say you will forgive us and please take your rightful place as heroes of our country. We have learned a terribly painful lesson at your expense and we don't know how to fix it.

From the heart,

©Copyright 2001 by Julie Weaver


577 posted on 12/02/2005 11:51:18 AM PST by badnews
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Comment #578 Removed by Moderator

Comment #579 Removed by Moderator

To: mykdsmom
I need to find the arrest record of the scum bag that was arrested for assaulting my son outside of Fort Richardson. A hippy spit on him and my son asked for him to apologize. The jerk only shoved my son but it was done right in front of a police officer. The hippy was arrested released and was shortly shot during a drug deal gone wrong.
Does anyone know who I could call for a copy to mail to this guy?
580 posted on 04/24/2006 7:32:10 PM PDT by armymarinemom (My sons freed Iraqi and Afghan Honor Roll students.)
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