Abolish the IRS with National Sales Tax?

Fox News ^ | 11/3/04 | tgusa

[tgusa]

"I'm not exactly sure how big the national sales tax is going to have to be, but it's kind of an interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously," the president said. The next day administration officials said Bush was not considering such a reform.

John Kerry's campaign quickly condemned a national sales tax, and Bush for potentially supporting it.

“If [Bush] has his way, every trip to the supermarket will feel like a visit to H&R Block and every day will be April 15. And now that this plan has been exposed, George W. Bush is trying to mislead the public into thinking it was just an off-the-cuff comment," Kerry spokesman Phil Singer said in an Aug. 12 statement.

[numberonepal]

How can you call this tax "voluntary" vs. the income tax? Is buying food more voluntary than having a job?

From Fair Tax FAQ

All valid Social Security cardholders who are U.S. residents receive a monthly rebate equivalent to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, also known as the poverty level expenditures. The rebate is paid in advance, in equal installments each month. The size of the rebate is determined by the Department of Health & Human Services’ poverty level multiplied by the tax rate. This is a well-accepted, long-used poverty-level calculation that includes food, clothing, shelter, transportation, medical care, etc.

Why not just exempt food and medicine from the tax? Wouldn’t that be fair and simple? Exempting items by category is neither fair nor simple. Respected economists have shown that the wealthy spend much more on unprepared food, clothing, housing, and medical care than do the poor. Exempting these goods, as many state sales taxes do, actually gives the wealthy a disproportionate benefit. Also, today these purchases are not exempted from federal taxation. The purchase of food, clothing, and medical services is made from after income tax and after payroll tax dollars, while their purchase price hides the cost of corporate taxes and private sector compliance costs.

[Myrddin]

Alex Jones was a guest on George Noory's CoastToCoast last night. He had a VERY unpleasant observation about a possible implementation of a national sales tax. The line he is touting involves a NATIONAL ID CARD. When you make a purchase, the amount of sales tax is decided after you scan your id card. In a nutshell, the tax assessed is not the same for every person purchasing the same merchandise. Higher income earners will be assessed a higher sales tax percentage. The net effect is changing from a "progressive" income tax to a "progressive" sales tax. The commies are anxious to get behind this one.

Don't expect a national sales tax to be applied equally to all persons buying the same merchandise. That isn't what the lefty politicians have in mind. The national sales tax won't do away with social security, medicare and other similar taxes. That will still be taken from your paycheck on an ever upward spiral.

[Myrddin]

Economists agree that a Consumption based tax places less 'drag' on an economy. EVERYONE pays it too. Welfare parasites, the unemployed, retired people, kids, tourists, illegal aliens, people who work under the table. Anyone who consumes pays the tax.

You are making a bad assumption that everyone pays it. There are schemes in the works to apply a sliding scale of sales tax that is keyed to your income. That's no better than the current communist income tax plan in place today.

[FreedomCalls]

What do you suggest?

A flat tax.

[ancient_geezer]

Alex Jones was a guest on George Noory's CoastToCoast last night. He had a VERY unpleasant observation about a possible implementation of a national sales tax.

Possible implementations are nothing more than hot air.Anyone can come up with fanciful scenarios, an actual implementation such as HR25 is what controls. I suggest you read it.

The national sales tax won't do away with social security, medicare and other similar taxes. That will still be taken from your paycheck on an ever upward spiral.

Sorry, but your prognostication does not comport with the actual legislative text supported in Congress:

 

H.R.25

Fair Tax Act of 2003 (Introduced in House)
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.25:

---

*** Snip ***

TITLE I--REPEAL OF THE INCOME TAX, PAYROLL TAXES, AND ESTATE AND GIFT TAXES

• SEC. 101. INCOME TAXES REPEALED.

• SEC. 102. PAYROLL TAXES REPEALED.

• SEC. 103. ESTATE AND GIFT TAXES REPEALED.

• SEC. 104. CONFORMING AMENDMENTS; EFFECTIVE DATE.

TITLE II--SALES TAX ENACTED

• SEC. 201. SALES TAX.

*** Snip ***

 

---

The commies are anxious to get behind this one.

***

Don't expect a national sales tax to be applied equally to all persons buying the same merchandise. That isn't what the lefty politicians have in mind.

Hmmm!

H.R. 25
Title: To promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.

Sponsor: [R] Linder, John [GA-7] (introduced 1/7/2003)
Latest Major Action: 1/7/2003 Referred to House committee.
Status: Referred to the House Committee on Ways and Means.

Cosponsors:

1. [R] Akin, W. Todd - 4/10/2003 [MO-2]
2. [R] Baker, Richard H. - 3/26/2003 [LA-6]
3. [R] Bartlett, Roscoe G. - 10/2/2003 [MD-6]
4. [R] Beauprez, Bob - 6/2/2003 [CO-7]
5. [R] Bilirakis, Michael - 11/18/2003 [FL-9]
6. [R] Bonilla, Henry - 4/2/2003 [TX-23]
7. [R] Brady, Kevin - 3/18/2003 [TX-8]
8. [R] Burns, Max - 3/31/2003 [GA-12]
9. [R] Burton, Dan - 5/6/2004 [IN-5]
10. [R] Carter, John R. - 3/31/2003 [TX-31]
11. [R] Collins, Mac - 2/25/2003 [GA-8]
12. [R] Cubin, Barbara - 3/2/2004 [WY- at large]
13. [R] Culberson, John Abney - 2/25/2003 [TX-7]
14. [R] Deal, Nathan - 3/17/2003 [GA-10]
15. [R] DeLay, Tom - 3/26/2003 [TX-22]
16. [R] DeMint, Jim - 9/3/2003 [SC-4]
17. [R] Doolittle, John T. - 3/25/2003 [CA-4]
18. [R] Duncan, John J., Jr. - 9/24/2003 [TN-2]
19. [R] Flake, Jeff - 2/25/2003 [AZ-6]
20. [R] Franks, Trent - 4/2/2003 [AZ-2]
21. [R] Gingrey, Phil - 3/31/2003 [GA-11]
22. [R] Goss, Porter - 5/11/2004 [FL-14]
23. [R] Granger, Kay - 7/24/2003 [TX-12]
24. [R] Graves, Sam - 4/27/2004 [MO-6]
25. [R] Gutknecht, Gil - 3/26/2003 [MN-1]
26. [R] Hall, Ralph M. - 2/25/2003 [TX-4]
27. [R] Hefley, Joel - 4/3/2003 [CO-5]
28. [R] Hensarling, Jeb - 6/2/2003 [TX-5]
29. [R] Hoekstra, Peter - 2/6/2004 [MI-2]
30. [R] Isakson, Johnny - 9/3/2003 [GA-6]
31. [R] Jones, Walter B., Jr. - 9/3/2003 [NC-3]
32. [R] Keller, Ric - 9/15/2003 [FL-8]
33. [R] King, Steve - 2/25/2003 [IA-5]
34. [R] Kingston, Jack - 4/8/2003 [GA-1]
35. [R] Lewis, Jerry - 4/2/2003 [CA-41]
36. [R] McInnis, Scott - 10/8/2003 [CO-3]
37. [R] Miller, Candice S. - 6/2/2004 [MI-10]
38. [R] Miller, Gary G. - 4/30/2003 [CA-42]
39. [R] Miller, Jeff - 4/30/2003 [FL-1]
40. [R] Neugebauer, Randy - 10/29/2003 [TX-19]
41. [R] Norwood, Charlie - 3/17/2003 [GA-9]
42. [R] Otter, C.L. - 7/14/2004 [ID-1]
43. [R] Pearce, Stevan - 3/25/2003 [NM-2]
44. [D] Peterson, Collin C. - 1/7/2003 [MN-7]
45. [R] Sessions, Pete - 5/11/2004 [TX-32]
46. [R] Shadegg, John B. - 3/31/2003 [AZ-3]
47. [R] Smith, Nick - 7/9/2004 [MI-7]
48. [R] Stearns, Cliff - 5/4/2004 [FL-6]
49. [R] Tancredo, Thomas G. - 4/30/2003 [CO-6]
50. [R] Taylor, Charles H. - 9/15/2003 [NC-11]
51. [R] Thornberry, Mac - 3/11/2004 [TX-13]
52. [R] Toomey, Patrick J. - 3/10/2004 [PA-15]
53. [R] Wilson, Joe - 5/22/2003 [SC-2]
54. [R] Young, Don - 4/30/2003 [AK-at large]

[Myrddin]

I read through HR25. I see no explicit protection that guarantees that the rate of tax assessed for any given transaction shall be identical for any and all persons who wish to conduct that transaction. The legislation delves into issues of "poverty level" suggesting that some means testing is intended. That smacks of preferential treatment for some class of income earners vs the rest of the population. Assessing different taxation on the same transaction violates the equal protection clause.

[ancient_geezer]

I read through HR25. I see no explicit protection that guarantees that the rate of tax assessed for any given transaction shall be identical for any and all persons who wish to conduct that transaction.

It sets a single rate. and taxes all goods and services no exception. Everyone purchasing for final use or consumption is required to pay the tax with payment for the product. Seller is liable for collecting and remitting the tax to his state tax authority.

Anything in legislation is subject to future change by the body that creates it. It is up to the electorate to assure that legislation stays within acceptable bounds. That is true of the current tax system and any other you can come up with.

 

The legislation delves into issues of "poverty level" suggesting that some means testing is intended. That smacks of preferential treatment for some class of income earners vs the rest of the population.

Only povertylevel specified by the legislation is that established by HHS, the cost of a defined basket of goods necessary to the maintainance of health updated for inflation, and provides the basis for the amount of FCA to be paid to each household.

There are only two variables, CPI and size of family, and one constant the base value of a definded basket of goods.

Assessing different taxation on the same transaction violates the equal protection clause.

Then asswssing different taxation on the same transaction won't happen will it. The legislation specifically taxes all new goods and services and specifies one tax rate, everyone pays the rate.

[Myrddin]

There are 20,000 gun regulations on the books. All are violations of the 2nd amendment. The U.S. Supreme Court refuses to deal with the issue. Do you think they will be any more vigorous in protecting us from unequal taxation behavior? I don't trust the government to behave in a moral fashion. Especially with respect to taxation and the socialist agenda of many government employees (elected and bureaucratic).

[ancient_geezer]

I don't trust the government to behave in a moral fashion. Especially with respect to taxation and the socialist agenda of many government employees (elected and bureaucratic).

Who's asking you to trust them.

[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt.
--Samuel Adams

All that is being offered in the NRST legislation is a clean slate, it is up to the American people to maintain it that way.

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
John Jay, letter to Jedidiah Morse 28 Feb 1797

"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt."
-John Philpot Curran: Speech upon the Right of Election, 1790. (Speeches. Dublin, 1808.)

 

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty--power is ever stealing from the many to the few.

Wendell Phillips (1811 - 1884)

[Bon mots]

That wouldn't work at all. It would just replace one mess with another.
It should be a flat tax.

[Your Nightmare]

Faith is for wimps. :) I trust Dale Jorgenson's research.

So you believe that the labor supply can increase 30% in one year?

I also believe he may have been keeping after tax income level in his model, which means our salaries would have to be dropped by the amount of income and payroll taxes we are paying. This is where the majority of price drop is coming from.

[Principled]

If I'm not mistaken the states get 1/4 of one percent ( .0025)that they remit to the feds.

Yep. And so do retailers - for remitting. Retailers get 1/4 % or $200 (IIRC) , whichever is greater.

[tgusa]

Why don't we just give EVERYONE a prebate? Your solution for the mechanism to get this proposal through Congress is ...? The floor is yours.

[tgusa]

Great - so according to this reasoning the income tax is illegal. All the more reason to get behind Congress to get this mess straightened out.

[Principled]

Published

You're a lying demagogue.

[tgusa]

OK, you lawyers can hash this out!

[tgusa]

Agree, that's a bad scenario, but so are the vast majority of scenarios posited on Coast to Coast. I guess it COULD happen -

[Principled]

Why don't we just give EVERYONE a prebate?

HR 25 does allow everyone with valid SSN to receive the prebate.

[tgusa]

You are absolutely right. I had forgotten that, and I apologize.

[tgusa]

I have been reminded that HR 25 would prebate everyone with a valid SSN. That is, everyone with a valid SSN,regardless of income level, would receive a check each month equal to one-twelfth of the annual prebate for poverty level income. I apologize for the confusion.