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Posted on 09/30/2004 5:57:19 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
Thread 1 - Pre-Debate discussion
I kept my big, conservative/slant mouth shut, listened real closely afterwards to this person's comments, and gut level reactions. And I tend to agree with that person.
I.e., (donning asbestos underwear here), tonight's debate was more or less a draw. Pres. Bush had his moments, but mixed in with weak performance at times. Overall, he could have done better, but he made no major mistakes, no major flubs. Posture and gesturing and voice tone were satisfactory to poor at most times. Sen. Kerry was forceful and quick and had great posture and hand movements. He did not directly straighteye the camera enough, where we the people reside, though. And his nodding when Bush talked looked awkward and insincere. All of this is fine with me.
Sen. Kerry did well, but flip flopped quite a bit, as Pres. Bush showed. He, too, did not hit a homerun, but did not make a major mistake.
Overall, tonight? Well, a draw 10-10 between the two men.
Which is fine with me, because Kerry is still behind considerably, nationwide and in swing states.
(Don't kill the messenger. America is NOT Free Republic, anymore than it is Democratic Underground.com. The great middle out there across the land this year that is undecided, like sheep, is who and what is important, and how they "felt" about the whole thing, even if most of them don't have advanced facilities of reasoning, deduction, or exposure to complex foreign issues.
A few points about the debate:
1. By now, people should realize that the president isn't a great speaker. He's not like a Chirstopher Hitchens or other pundit that'll make these great rhetorical flourishes
2. Kerry said he've give Iran nuclear fuel-that alone should disqualify him for office
3. His inconsistency over coalition in Iraq and unilateralism in NK was disturbing
4. It's funny that now he waxes poetic about how bad the CCCP and Communism when he took the opposite aproach in Nam and his meeting with Ortega
5. He said he'll never falter or waver yet when he got 3 minor injuries in Nam, he bailed out and went on to rip his fellow soldiers
All in all, I think Bush did ok and held the fort. it wasn't a knockout, but I don't think it was bad enough that he lost ground
NewsMax is already reporting that the questions were biased.. that will be interesting to hear about tomorrow!!
What's "FULE"?
Kerry: "I've never wilted". HA!
"Dick Morris said the other night on Fox that Kerry must have a plan for Iraq and not just come out and bash Bush all night."
I keep referring to my liberal-leaning, undecided sisters, but I think it's interesting to have the perspective of the average undecided voter. One of them said that she didn't like the way that Kerry kept attacking the President rather than answering the questions.
As to WMDs, Bush NEVER pointed out that intelligence agencies from every country in the world thought Hussein had WMDs. Even Clinton thought he had them.
Maybe I'm overreacting, but we've got a race on our hands now, and we could lose this thing.
Agreed.
This is part of the problem with reading mostly conservative websites. We know our own arguments, and assume that since we think we're right and the other side are bad people, that all we have to do is prove that the other side are the bad guys.
The great unwashed middle of swing voters doesn't react to those sorts of arguments all that well. Approaching them has to be done in a subtle fashion, not a scorched earth approach.
Bush took the subtle approach tonight. He scored some points, and missed on some other opportunities. I can guarantee you that there are liberals howling because Kerry didn't come out and try to prove to the world that Bush is a Nazi. They're upset too, but Kerry's people knew that Kerry had to make his approach in less histrionic terms.
If there's one thing I wish Bush hadn't done, it was letting Kerry bait him in the last 30 seconds of each of Kerry's answers, so Bush would be briefly off message at the start of his response. Sometimes he had to take the bait, but other times Bush should have ignored the bait.
Yea and an unnecessary flub made out of his trying to appear so intelligent. Small yes, but damaging as those small things are. Main point though is that he did not succeed in turning the tables on Bush and making stick those charges of Bush being "inconsistent" while he himself was steadfast. That constant theme fell flat. The American people are not going to buy it and they are not going to buy it that they would be safer under JFK. They won't. Besides all this emphasis on strong defense has to have shaves off some liberal support.
And yet he stayed within the time controls (which surprised me, though it perhaps supports the theory of his having the questions beforehand).
I'm reading Franks' book right now, "American Soldier". It's fantastic, and you'd never know it but he ALSO was in Vietnam!
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My Campaign Button Page
and My Toons Page [Updated 9-22 / 11:00PM CST]
I saw that .. and bectcha if they do some more fact checking they'll find Kerry lied out his rear end on many many issues
I agree with you. In the first half hour the President I thought cut the legs out from under Kerry. He was forceful in reminding us how not only mixed messages but demeaning Allawi makes it impossible for Kerry to lead. The comeback about Kerry getting a global agreement on preemption was strong. I think some of us tend to worry at the moment. My take is that Kerry provided plenty of fodder for commercials over the next weeks. Kerry temporarily enlivened his base and that means we can expect them to get goofy again - they're emboldened. This is not a bad thing.
Because Kerry uses words like levers to take him where he wants to go and his actual words are not connected to anything he believes, the President's job was to keep his positions short, brief and crystal clear. This he did.
Kerry's job was to come up with "the plan." He didn't.
Everything else is noise. Sure, Kerry perhaps shined in the oral argument, but he has no facts to convince a jury.
The Freepers who are the biggest critics of the President's performance see a debate as sort of an athletic contest where there is a winner and a loser. So too, do many ordinary people. Do they vote on this. I think not.
"Keep it simple, stupid" is the President's strategy and it will work.
Didn't watch it but I'm watching Fox News after the fact.
THE BOTTOM LINE:
KERRY WANTS TO REINSTITUTE THE DRAFT
Can Americans really put up with that?
And he asked Kerry at least one very good question:
"Could you please tell us, Senator, just what the hell is your plan for Iraq anyway?"
To which Kerry responded, in summary, I can do it faster and better and with more friends.... and I'll close the borders.
The challenger of a war time president cannot focus on the could-of, would-of, should-of, he must have a plan for the future. Political oratory must be about the future. This is Kerry's biggest problem which he won't solve in the next five weeks, and it will likely cost him the election.
President Bush clearly won the policy debate tonight.
1. We SHOULD not demean our allies and Kerry has called them a gang of the coerced.
2. We SHOULD be consistent in our direction in this war and Kerry began the debate saying he supported taking our Saddam Hussein and he ended it saying our "invading" Iraq and taking our Saddam was a mistake.
3. We SHOULD strongly support United States independence and Kerry says we should pass a global test before we act.
4. We SHOULD involve all countries that have the ability to influence N. Korea but Kerry CHANGED in mid-stream from a supporter of a bi-lateral method to a tri-lateral supporter. Had the debate gone on for another hour he would have worked all the way up to Bush's 5 pronged leverage on N. Korea.
He flipped right on screen.
Anny, no Koolaide. Dubya did fine. Watch and see.
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