THE "New" CBS BUSH DOCUMENTS: Let's do some investigating

www.freerepublic.com | September 9, 2004

[Howlin]

These are the NEW documents "discovered" by CBS with conjunction with their Ben Barnes expose/confessional tonight regarding George Bush's National Guard service.

They've gotten some interesting comments on the Live Thread, so I thought I'd give them their own thread so you people out there with the knowledge can dissect them for their accuracy/truth/existence.

[McGavin999]

I pulled out a bunch of my letters of reference from the 1970's and looked at the "O"s in all of them, nowhere did I see a round "O". One was typed with the IBM Executive using the Daisy Wheel, the "O" was oval.

[Razimus]

In this MSNBC story, video in the url to see, an FBI document expert gives many examples of it being a false document, the FBI document expert says, "I don't believe that anyone in the forensic community that saw this document would have verified it as a genuine document. There are just too many things that are wrong with the document". He gives 3 good examples:

1. The address of the fire squadron is Perfectly Centered, difficult for a typewriter to do, I personally would say near impossible for a typewriter to do.

2. Curly apostrophes, every typewriter I've seen has had a straight ' apostrophes.

3. The infamous raised TH, they found other TH's supposedly on older documents but there is a line under those TH's.

I think the Libs are just ticked that we found out Kerry didn't deserve at least one of his purple hearts. It's no big deal even if the dirt on Kerry or on Bush were true. The public is more concerned about the current topics of today. Sure George Bush use to drink, but how is his distant past effecting how he is running the country today? It's an obvious desperate last straw the Libs are pulling, because they know based on Current topics and Current events, Bush wins hands down.

I think the networks should go get some non-partisan typewriter and word processor experts and finally close the case. The expert CBS is standing by isn't a document expert or a typewriter expert, he's simply a hand writing expert, which really doesn't mean much. I saw an episode of Unsolved Mysteries 3 years ago about the suicide of Kurt Cobain, they had a hand writing expert look at it and he said the first few lines and the last few lines of the suicide note were not Kurt's handwriting, it's possible, but he could easily be wrong.

- Razimus razimus.com

[MoifDaSoif]

Why won't Kerry allow his military records released.

The Democrats have accused George Bush of being AWOL from his Reserve Unit in Alabama in 1972! They gave up when Bush authorized release of all his records. The AWOL charge turned out to be phony!

Bush received an "Honorable Discharge" for his National Guard service.

Now it turns out that archived Naval Records disclose that JOHN KERRY did not receive his "Honorable Discharge" from the Navy, until March 12, 2001. His service obligation should have ended JULY 1, 1972 - About the time that Bush was ending his honorable Guard service in Alabama.

What is going on here? - Honorable Discharge in 2001? Had he received something else in prior years?

Based on records obtained FROM: Director AuthentiSeal / SEAL Authentication Team / A.L. "Steve" Nash, MAC Ret., UDT / SEAL - # 707 - He describes the following:

On Feb. 18, 1966 John Kerry signed a six year enlistment contract with the Navy - plus, 6 additional months extension during wartime. On Feb. 18, 1966, John Kerry also signed an Officer Candidate contract for six years - 5 years of ACTIVE duty and ACTIVE Navy Reserves and one year of inactive standby reserves (#4 & #5)

Lt. John Kerry was subject to enforcement of any Uniform Code of Military Justice violation. Any commissioned officer was also prohibited from making adverse statements against his chain of command, or statements against his country, especially during a time of war.

It is puzzling that Kerry's military records do not show his honorable discharge from the service, until MARCH 12, 2001. Why was it issued then? Who made this request? Did it have any connection with a run for the presidency? Kerry should clarify this oddity.

Lt. John Kerry, in his letter of November 21, 1969 asked for an early release from active duty. He falsely claimed that his "regular period of obligated service would be completed in December of 1969".

This period of active duty would amount to about three years and ten months of his contractually required six years of total service. NOTE: This is less than George Bush's five years of National Guard service.

Lt. John F. Kerry was transferred to the Naval Reserve Manpower Center, Bainbridge, Maryland, on Jan. 3, 1970. Because John Kerry was discharged from TOTAL active duty of only three (3) years and eighteen (18) days on Jan. 3, 1970, he was then required to attend 48 drills per year, and not more than 17 days active duty for training

Where are Kerry's "Performance Records" for this two years of obligated Ready Reserve duty? He would have to meet for 48 Required Drills per year and 17 days of active duty per year.

How many Drills was he "AWOL"? Did he attend ANY reserve drills? Why won't Kerry release his service records? And prove the accuracy of his claims and what he wrote in his battle reports.

Lt. John Kerry was discharged from the naval Reserve on February 16, 1978.

The following is a list of potential "War Crimes" for which Lt. John Kerry could have been charged:

1. Attendance of many war rallies where the Vietcong flag was displayed while the U.S. flag was being desecrated, defiled and mocked, thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

2 Presence in a meeting of Anti-War protesters voting on "assassinating members of the U.S. Senate."

3. Kerry lied under oath, when testifying against fellow soldiers and sailors and shipmates, saying that he saw them committing war crimes in Viet Nam.

4. Kerry professed on national TV to being a war criminal, condemning the military and his government.

5. Lt. Kerry met with the NVA and Vietcong communist leaders in Paris, in direct violation of the U.C.MJ. Article 104, Part. 904, and U.S. Code 18 SU.S.C 953.

He committed these violations while he was still a U.S. Naval Officer. He stands in violation of Article 3, Section 3, of the Constitution.

The Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3, states, "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elected President or Vice President, having taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States, who has engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or, given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." More curious issues: The John Kerry's campaign for president posted a sanitized military record on his Web site (http://www.johnkerry.com/) for critics to peruse.

But one sharp-eyed Washington Times reader a former B-52 pilot and U.S. Air Force colonel isn't buying Mr. Kerry's selective posting.

"I looked at that Web site and the first thing I looked at was Kerry's Silver Star citation Guess what? It is for an action that took place in 1969, but it is signed by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman. Strangely, Lehman was secretary of the Navy from 1981 to 1987," he noted.

"How could Kerry have received a citation from an official that would not be in office for 12 years? This was NOT just a case of providing a new copy of a citation for the office to replace one that was lost (destroyed/thrown over a wall). This effort by Lehman & Kerry actually changed Kerry's official Navy record, sometime in the 80s," he continued.

No wonder the Democrats are raising so much stink about the Swift boats! They must not want this info to get out !!!

[alrea]

Frankly I cannot even begin to imagine this is worth the time spent on broadcast.

No doubt, unless your entire motivation as a company is to change the course of an election no matter how weak your case is. At least CBS covered the hurricane first.

Hopefully CBS won't have to do special coverage on Kerry's hang nail or hemorrhoid.

[rocklobster11]

Dr. Bouffard is quoted in the NY Times as wanting to look at Times New Roman in the IBM Composer, so this is something you might want to follow up on.

This thread, Dan, You Partisan Slut has links and images to a site that recreated one of the memos on an IBM Composer. It is close, but not as close as the default MS Word Doc. It was also not trivial to do

[amnicbra]

I printed out all the Bush Guard Documents (on a laser printer) and found that the three documents that CBS 60 Minutes presented, reveal something interesting, When you print the PDF document "memorandum" medical exam. you can read the Blacked out text.
"5000 Longmont #8" But all the other documents that Bush turned over "that are offered on CBS Web Site" All Blacked out text is not readable.

I blacked out some text on a test doc with a black marker, then copied and faxed it and found that the copied doc's text was not readable same with the faxed one. So is Dan Rather lying when he said, these were faxed to him?

Remember that these docs were not sent to CBS from Col Killian's family, and the Government Always Blacks out Personal Info like address, phone ect..

I just wonder if anyone has any insite on this?

[David M. Brooks]

" Are the superscript letter the exact same size as the regular letters? " NO!!! They are much smaller. The only way I can imagine it could be done was with one of the IBM typewriters with a removable ball. In the middle of the document, the typist would have had to stop, change balls, type two letters, change balls again, and proceed. In the address at the top he did not bother, he put 111th with no superscript. In the first paragraph he just wrote 111 F.L.S.. In paragraph 2 he puts 111th with a superscript that is clearly a smaller font. NO WAY IN THE WORLD!

I owned an IBM Executive in '72, and there were some superscript characters, I don't recall the "th" but I expect it could be ordered. But to get the effect in the CBS memos the typist would have to roll the platen down, type the "th" character, then roll the platen back. So, it's not, "no way" but, who would bother in a memo to an underling. Anyway, aside from the CBS memos, there is no evidence that any proportional spaced typewriter was used in Kilian's office.

[psalms4us]

yep, i noticed the blacked out item, too.

I used some pretty high-end typewriters in the 70s, but none had proportional spacing. Most business typewriters used just plain old fixed (or absolute) spacing. The Linotronic systems available at the time required either a positive film canister or a negative film canister, and would have been very difficult to compose and distribute memos on.

I'm not interested in the 60 Minutes story any more. I'm just concerned that a news organization doesn't want to take its insulin shot, and is going to die of shock because it can't get it's head out of its #*@. The documents are so false, it's not even funny.

[Robert A Cook PE]

For the record.

[aushop]

Almost all USAF offices above the Squadron level had the IBM Executive typewritter as early as 1962. We had one in my boss' office in 1965, and at my previous base in 1963. It had a double function. It could type regular Courier font letters, but in the executive mode, it was most definitely a proportional font. I can guarantee this because in the mid 1980s I bought one at auction for $5.00.
It was used in the executive mode for OER [Officer Effictiveness Reports], AER [Airmen], and all letters to parallel or higher command offices. By 1970, I would suspect that any office that wanted one, had it. My TAS [Tactical Airlift Squadron] had one in 1968.
But, it did not have variable fonts and could not type super or sub script.
Second but. The IBM Selectric came out in that era, and it did have the capability of super and sub scripts. I never used one, so don't know for sure if it was capable of proportional balls, but suspect that it did.

aushop
Col, USAF Retired

[aushop]

I spent 29 years in the AF [1951-1980], and I never heard the word "Medical." We called them "Annual Physicals." Six of my years were spent as an active duty officer in AF Reserve Units, where the same exact words were used. Perhaps they might have been called Annual Flight Physicals", but I doubt that even the ANG called them "annual physical examination (flight)." That's not the way I remember any military jargon.

And, I am sure you all know that the signature element was not on the right side of the page. Civilians did it that way, but not the AF.

And nobody put a period between the letters USAF, FIS, AF, TAS, [Tactical Airlift Squadron] TAW, FW [Fighter Wing], SOS [Special Operations Squadron], SOW [Special Operations Wing], MAJCOM [Major Air Command], ad infinitum.

aushop
Col, USAF, Retired

[teletech]

I spent 29 years in the AF [1951-1980], and I never heard the word "Medical." We called them "Annual Physicals." Six of my years were spent as an active duty officer in AF Reserve Units, where the same exact words were used. Perhaps they might have been called Annual Flight Physicals", but I doubt that even the ANG called them "annual physical examination (flight)." That's not the way I remember any military jargon.

And, I am sure you all know that the signature element was not on the right side of the page. Civilians did it that way, but not the AF.

And nobody put a period between the letters USAF, FIS, AF, TAS, [Tactical Airlift Squadron] TAW, FW [Fighter Wing], SOS [Special Operations Squadron], SOW [Special Operations Wing], MAJCOM [Major Air Command], ad infinitum.

aushop Col, USAF, Retired

First let me thank you for your service to your country.

I was a Helicopter Crew Chief in the Illinois Army National Guard for 6 years.

These "documents" are clearly forged. Everyone that has examined them, with the exception of CBS News, has said they aren't genuine. It is crazy for CBS to think they can keep this scam going when USAF Officers such as yourself have pointed to the many flaws these document contain.

Most of the other major news organizations haved long since backed away from CBS. Must be very lonely out there on that limb Mr. Rather.

[MountaineersAlwaysFree]

Reference the fonts used on the suspect documents.
On the 4 May 1972 document note "2. Report 111th"
where the th is elevated.

Note, also the 18 August 1973 document "feedback from 187th" where the th is elevated.

Note, also the 01 August 1972 document " 147 th Ftr"
shows the th not elevated.

In the first two instances the computer used automatically elevated the th. In the third document the computer did not automatically raise the th because the person placed a space between the digits and the th.

Do not think any typewriters back in the '70's could automatically raise or minimize the size of the type font
behind the digits in a numerical sequence.

Recommend others check this out.

As an old printer I could not spell printer but now
I are one!

[Howlin]

Not any that I used back then.

[MountaineersAlwaysFree]

None of my selectric balls carry the characters (digits) for printing super of sub scripts. Note reply #634

[mwdouglass]

Is it not an option for Killian's family to enlist FBI help in filing charges of fraud and forgery: against CBS to force revealing their "source" for the bogus documents.

- mwd
Houston, TX

[ubu]

I suggest you pay closer attention to whose "reply" button you click in the future, Lowbrow.

[lowbridge]

I suggest you watch your namecalling, plebe.

[ubu]

In the News/Activism forum, on a thread titled THE "New" CBS BUSH DOCUMENTS: Let's do some investigating, lowbridge wrote:

I suggest you watch your namecalling, plebe.

---

If you can't pay attention to whom you're replying, I can't be bothered to doublecheck a name. Nice word, that "plebe." Did you learn it from my other post?

Ah well. Clicking the latest name on the list is probably a common error. I shouldn't judge you so harshly. Anyway, I'm not interested in the other two forgeries CBS is holding, and I'm not particularly interested in an octogenerian whom they are holding up as their defense. Big bad CBS is trying to hide behind the skirts of an 86-year old woman and expects me to believe or respect them as a news organization?

Why should I start now? I haven't for the last ten years....