Posted on 08/01/2004 6:08:53 PM PDT by NeoCaveman
A domestic centerpiece of the Bush/GOP agenda for a second Bush term is getting rid of the Internal Revenue Service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.
The Speaker of the House will push for replacing the nation's current tax system with a national sales tax or a value added tax, Hill sources tell DRUDGE.
"People ask me if I’m really calling for the elimination of the IRS, and I say I think that’s a great thing to do for future generations of Americans," Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert explains in his new book, to be released on Wednesday.
"Pushing reform legislation will be difficult. Change of any sort seldom comes easy. But these changes are critical to our economic vitality and our economic security abroad," Hastert declares in SPEAKER: LESSONS FROM FORTY YEARS IN COACHING AND POLITICS.
"“If you own property, stock, or, say, one hundred acres of farmland and tax time is approaching, you don’t want to make a mistake, so you’re almost obliged to go to a certified public accountant, tax preparer, or tax attorney to help you file a correct return. That costs a lot of money. Now multiply the amount you have to pay by the total number of people who are in the same boat. You can’t. No one can because precise numbers don’t exist. But we can stipulate that we’re talking about a huge amount. Now consider that a flat tax, national sales tax, or VAT would not only eliminate the need to do this, it could also eliminate the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) itself and make the process of paying taxes much easier."
"By adopting a VAT, sales tax, or some other alternative, we could begin to change productivity. If you can do that, you can change gross national product and start growing the economy. You could double the economy over the next fifteen years. All of a sudden, the problem of what future generations owe in Social Security and Medicare won’t be so daunting anymore. The answer is to grow the economy, and the key to doing that is making sure we have a tax system that attracts capital and builds incentives to keep it here instead of forcing it out to other nations."
You seem to have forgotten the discussion of just a few threads ago where several posters explained to you why a tariff arrangement was a useless thing to do. It not only does not raise nearly enough revenue to be revenue neutral (which is the requirement for a major tax bill), but it does nothing to eliminate either the income tax OR the IRS. It basically accomplishes nothing except, perhaps, initiate a trade war or two.
In view of that, you might answer the question "What's so fair about a tax on income?"
Little Willie is "The Worst President In American History".
20 Posted on 03/19/2000 16:50:38 PST by pigdog
Thanks for your reply..
Yes there are currently hidden taxes in most things produced and consumed, one of the benefits of a NRST is that everyone will be able to see that they are paying taxes and will be more aware of the rate. As for illegals getting a tax cut, that applies to everyone, not just illegals, but with a NRST we will be reasonable assured they are at least paying taxes on their consumption. Percentage wise, they will be paying more in taxes than they are now as payroll and income taxes will be included in/replaced by NRST.
Still waiting for an answer to my question #3,
3) Do you like our current system and do you think it is fair now?
You may be posting *crickets*, but you're actually squealing like a stuck pig.
"States still may have state income taxes."
Few, if any, states will retain their income taxes. There are a number of reasons, not the least of which is that every state income tax in existence today uses the federal system as its foundation. Without a federal income tax, any state would have to build its own income tax system from the ground up if it wanted to continue to tax income. That would politically and practically a very difficult undertaking.
"I've told you before, Willie Green, the question is not about the fairness of the NRST, but about the fairness of the income tax which - with your plan - you relegate us to continuing.
You are mislead if you believe that the customers of the businesses do not bear the economic incidence of the corporate taxes. The revenue from a business comes from its sales (assuming that to be its only revenue source). These sales are made to consumers or other businesses who in turn cascade the effects of corporate taxes and compliance costs and pass them along to the next level, eventually - perhaps after many levels of cascading - reaching the consumer. In the final analysis, the revenue all of these companies use to forward to the IRS comes from the consumer; it does not fall, manna-like, from heaven. There is simply no other possibility and the fundamentals of economics clearly tell us so.
It is odd that you claim to dislike the income tax so fervently and yet you propose no measures to rid us of it. It hardly adds credence to your case that you do not attempt to get rid of the income tax.
You speak of not liking the NRST and not wishing to be taxed on how you spend your money. It is ironic in the extreme that you do not have a similar feeling about having money taken from you that you never receive and by a system offering you no choice at all ... the money is simply taken by decree with the income tax. With the NRST you have the choice of whether to pay tax or not by controlling your purchases since, for example, used (untaxed) things are not taxed a second time nor are savings and investments. You have no such choice with the income tax and yet, with the NRST, you say it is unfair to tax you because you "eat more" than others because of your size. Surely that is something well within your ability to control; I know of no inherent "right" to eat more than others.
The NRST is imminently much more fair that the income tax and we could talk about that all day, but that's not the question I posed. It is your "tariff" plan which, by definition, retains the income tax as a way of producing the majority of tax revenues that you wish to discuss. Since you wish to retain the income tax as part of your plan you must offer your rationale for retaining it whether you wish to do so or not. You cannot pick and choose and speak only about certain aspects of your tax plan that you feel are beneficial - it is the entire plan that must be held up to the light of day and that includes telling us "What's so fair about a tax on income?"
Little Willie is "The Worst President In American History".
73 Posted on 03/21/2000 08:36:57 PST by pigdog"
You still haven't come up with a viable positive alternative to the NRST, after all these years.
How difficult would this actually be to accomplish.. what exactly would it take?
"The NRST proposal that's been festering in the halls of Congress is nothing but a grotesque distortion and convoluted misrepresentation of economic theory. Advocates of this "plan" clearly do not trust the American People to understand the true ramifications, and are poised to agressively shove a false paradigm down their dumbed-down throats. IMHO, the minimum response to such a beligerant abuse of power should be the time-honored American tradition of tar-and-feathering such dishonest political scalawags."
-- Nice prepared speech.
It's revenue neutral with respect to reduction of the corporate income tax.
but it does nothing to eliminate either the income tax OR the IRS.
I do not endorse such radically disruptive extremism.
Repacing the IRS boogeyman with the welfare pimps entrenched in the Social Security Adminsitration is an abominable idea anyway.
Blasts from the past:
"You're talking in circles now. How does it feel to post uninformed BS about what you "think" the NRST does and says?
I'll be more than happy to answer your questions, but not if you continue on these "hair-brained" tangents that don't add to the debate.
130 Posted on 03/22/2000 17:45:26 PST by CHIEF negotiator"
Hey Willie! Thanks for bringing that thread up!
Brings back fond memories of you getting your tail kicked by some of the smartest and best people on the planet.
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
Willie, Willie, Willie...
Sounds like your ox is getting gored.
Just what is your vested interest in the status quo anyway?
Oh, yeah... where's he gonna' get the 60+ votes in the Senate that he would need to pass this bill?
He couldn't even get the mild tax cuts he proposed made permanent.
Wow. I'm amazed how timeless the arguments in favor of the NRST are...and by how little your stubborn refusal to be truthful about this proposal has changed.
"You're still ducking the question, but at least you partially responded to it by admitting that an income tax was not fair.
The NRST (your consumption tax) is fair since it does, in fact, tax a person's ability to pay. That is exactly what is being taxed - and only to the extent that the person is voluntarily "paying" to purchase something. It is generally a conscious choice under the control of that individual and indicates that the person believes he has the ability to pay for (and thereby pay taxes on) that particular thing. If he hasn't the ability to pay he won't buy. It's up to him and since he is taxed at the same rate as everyone else it is the epitome of fairness, but any choice made to save or invest (thereby helping increase the capital pool to create jobs for others) is not taxed.
OTOH, with your net worth tax even though the rate may be the same, what is being taxed is the very economic success that has helped to make this country great - you are penalizing success. There is nothing fair about that and the present income tax system does, basically, the same thing.
Since you seem unable to bring yourself to admit openly that the income tax system is unfair, inefficient, and in need of being abolished as any part of the tax law of this country, I'll desist (at present) from asking you again. But, in the future should you continue to post in this vein I'll return to question you about it again.
It still, however, perplexes me as to who it is you think bears the economic incidence of tariffs. Perhaps you should read "Economics In One Lesson", the Henry Hazlitt classic, to find out.
Little Willie is "The Worst President In American History".
74 Posted on 03/21/2000 08:52:50 PST by pigdog"
You appear to be correct, we already have the huge loopholes. (big enough to drive my hummer thru) thanks for pointing it out. Lets see what happens. Take care.
1. Why do I need to know my state sales tax?Because if you think a sales tax makes you tax burden visible, you should be able to tell me how much you paid in state sales taxes last year. Can you?
Again you taking this discussion to an irrelevant point.
Actually, that one was freshly written...
but since you like it, I'll add it to my collection...
(BTW... thanks! Sometimes I forget to collect the gems I occasionally create.
It saves me quite a bit of time if I don't have to constantly reinvent the good ones!)
State & local sales tax 7.75 percent, pretty visible to me....what rate did you pay in income tax? corporate hidden taxes? payroll taxes?
I don't know why you are so wedded to the current system. Are you benefitting from it in some way?
The current system is a slave tax and is destructive of every American ideal. The FairTax may not be perfect, but I believe it to be the best and perhaps the only viable plan to rid us of the IRS and the Slave Tax.
This current system strips people of the incentive to work because of the confiscatory rates. The new system restores the incentive. I doubt that many people would (although SOME will) opt to get a larger rebate instead of a real and larger paycheck.
Why do you like the present system? Do you have another plan? Or are you just here to piss in our punchbowl?
You have no idea how much tax is part of producing. marketing and selling a gallon of milk. But many studies over many many years show the taxes on consumer goods are more than 50%.You do realize that the federal government took in over 4 1/2 times more individual income taxes than corporate income taxes last year, don't you?
Thanks for the ping AG!
Go Fair Tax!!!
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