Well Larry, that's just sad.
Posted on 05/16/2004 12:59:53 PM PDT by jmstein7
There is now a debate raging on FR about trolls, honest dissent, and the value of free speech. I would like to weigh in on this and then solicit opinions from all of you on the subject.
The First Amendment was a response to the English experience of viewpoint suppression by requiring licensing of the press – i.e. requiring pre-approval of books – the doctrine of construction treason, which held that writing can constitute treason, a capital offense, and the law of seditious libel, criminalizing unfavorable reporting of the government. However, the debate in the United States did not truly reach maturity until the early half of the 20th Century.
Justice Holmes (in, I believe, Abrams v. United States) famously averred that “[t]he best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market.” Even opinions which we “loathe and believe to be fraught with death” should not be suppressed, “unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purposes of the law that an immediate check is required to save the country.”
Alternatively, the self governance rationale posits that, because the general welfare depends on the citizens making enlightened decisions, in a democratic society, free expression and discussion are essential to deciding matters of public policy. The autonomy rationale holds that for an individual to regard himself as autonomous, he must see himself as free to decide which beliefs to hold. The First Amendment is also justified on the basis that it checks the abuse of power by public officials, it diffuses dissent by creating an atmosphere of open discussion, and it fosters a tolerant society.
I am inclined to agree with Justice Holmes – and that is why I support, as I think most FReepers do – honest dissent. Although such expression of opinion may make us angry, as the Court insinuated in Terminiello v. Chicago, the most valuable expression may well be that which because it is provocative and challenging, produces these emotions. This type of debate aids us in our perpetual search for the truth.
There is no such thing as a false idea. However pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. However, what we are concerned with is false statement of fact – this type of speech, particularly speech that is intended to be deceptive, adds nothing to public debate. False statements of fact, e.g. intentionally deceptive or libelous utterances, are not within the area of constitutionally protected speech. Deceptive or defamatory speech is “low value speech,” and it adds nothing constructive to the marketplace of ideas. This is why trolls are prohibited – because they add nothing to the debate and exist only to deceive and distort the truth we are seeking.
In a nutshell, we at FR do not support viewpoint discrimination. However, what we do ask for, at a minimum, is open and honest debate as we, together search for the truth. That is, per se, the value of free speech in a Free Republic.
Testify brother! lol
All views have their 'true believers' who would not be disuaded by divine intervention. While they polarize an argument or discussion, they are fairly easy to spot.
What I dislike is the occasional descent into rabid name-calling and incivility. I find this counterproductive, tedious to weed through.
We will win no hearts and minds by vitriolic attack, but only through reason.
If that doesn't work, flame the jerks!
Of course they don't. They're supervising the steamshovel at the middle-class strip mine.
The irony is truly priceless.
I don't mind dissent. There used to be quite a few openly liberal Freepers on here, and they were fun to debate. What I do find annoying are 'Moby' trolls who pretend to be Republicans.
I found FR when I did a web search during college football season, looking for some chatter about a few teams. Lucked out...
I think the Issues posters are as annoying as trolls. Remember TabithaSoren? Every thread was hijacked...
I think the moderators show a LOT of latitude, since there are still a lot of current FReepers who only post about the same subject all the time.
Paula Abdul: "Well.......
Simon Cowell: "Your parents could dress you in full clown suit with make-up and still, no-one would laugh".
Now which greed is that? The greed of a government that extorts such a high price from all of us - including business - in taxes and regulations? The greed of unions? Or the greed of the American worker that demands high wages and benefits.
Is free trade really the problem or merely the solution that business desperately needs to stay in business as a result of the 'greed' of all three entities.
Thanks. I figured it would save time, instead of just retyping it in every post.
This ain't a democracy, it's the Free Republic. If you don't like it start a country on some island.
You guys are just a couple of "free traitors" (hehe)
I have been a member of FR for many years. I lurk regularly and post on ocassion. I also give a monthly donation to keep the site going. I totally agree with the idea that FR should be a site for the open exchange of ideas. For the most part we all support the present administration, but there are some of us who do not believe the President walks on water. That has become a dangerous view to have over the last 3 years. At times the site sadly has looked more like a Bush/Cheney reelection website than an open forum. As a conservative I proudly called Mr. Clinton on the carpet numerous times for his failures, but I also think that I should have the same right to call President Bush out when he does something that I do not agree with. I also believe everyone here is within their rights to disagree with me when I do, but the disagreements should be civil and reasoned, too often that is no longer the case.
So for my money I hope FR can get back to what it was originally when I joined, that is a conservative, open forum for the fair and reasoned sharing and exchanging of ideas among like minded people who sometimes agree to disagree.
Correct. But if you support free trade he will call you a free traitor.
Well Larry, that's just sad.
Honest dissent is perfectly acceptable. This would be a worthless forum if viewpoints diverging from the "standard" were automatically excluded.
It's telling that those least interested in a healthy marketplace of ideas tend to be Republicans.
Like I said earlier, I didn't see that particular post. Back in the day, Drudge used to link to FR. That's how I found this site.
Thanks Petronski.
Rule number one, Tammy. On the internet, don't use your real name. Mentally deranged people will track you down, and harvest your personal information.
Okay. From what I gather, this young lady feels that it's the government's fault that she can't find a job. These days, half of college graduates can't find a job in their field.
Banned by post #2. For that post, she got banned? We lost a golden opportunity to share life experiences with this young lady. Tammy, keep 2 resumes. One for the job you want, the other for the job that you need today. You're too educated to clean houses and flip burgers, and the person hiring you will resent your educational achievements. They know once you get the job you've sweated for, you'll be out of there. So they won't hire you. Don't blame Bush, blame Clinton. For heaven's sake, please don't send him your resume!
To: CulryFro
Here's the explanation for your banning. Your posts appear to be those of terrorist supporting liberal troll. Buh bye.
54 posted on 05/16/2004 4:25:29 PM EDT by Jim Robinson
This thread has it all! Now where are those Marshmallows...
Lol, I corrected that in post #307 :-)
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