Posted on 05/16/2004 12:59:53 PM PDT by jmstein7
There is now a debate raging on FR about trolls, honest dissent, and the value of free speech. I would like to weigh in on this and then solicit opinions from all of you on the subject.
The First Amendment was a response to the English experience of viewpoint suppression by requiring licensing of the press – i.e. requiring pre-approval of books – the doctrine of construction treason, which held that writing can constitute treason, a capital offense, and the law of seditious libel, criminalizing unfavorable reporting of the government. However, the debate in the United States did not truly reach maturity until the early half of the 20th Century.
Justice Holmes (in, I believe, Abrams v. United States) famously averred that “[t]he best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market.” Even opinions which we “loathe and believe to be fraught with death” should not be suppressed, “unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purposes of the law that an immediate check is required to save the country.”
Alternatively, the self governance rationale posits that, because the general welfare depends on the citizens making enlightened decisions, in a democratic society, free expression and discussion are essential to deciding matters of public policy. The autonomy rationale holds that for an individual to regard himself as autonomous, he must see himself as free to decide which beliefs to hold. The First Amendment is also justified on the basis that it checks the abuse of power by public officials, it diffuses dissent by creating an atmosphere of open discussion, and it fosters a tolerant society.
I am inclined to agree with Justice Holmes – and that is why I support, as I think most FReepers do – honest dissent. Although such expression of opinion may make us angry, as the Court insinuated in Terminiello v. Chicago, the most valuable expression may well be that which because it is provocative and challenging, produces these emotions. This type of debate aids us in our perpetual search for the truth.
There is no such thing as a false idea. However pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. However, what we are concerned with is false statement of fact – this type of speech, particularly speech that is intended to be deceptive, adds nothing to public debate. False statements of fact, e.g. intentionally deceptive or libelous utterances, are not within the area of constitutionally protected speech. Deceptive or defamatory speech is “low value speech,” and it adds nothing constructive to the marketplace of ideas. This is why trolls are prohibited – because they add nothing to the debate and exist only to deceive and distort the truth we are seeking.
In a nutshell, we at FR do not support viewpoint discrimination. However, what we do ask for, at a minimum, is open and honest debate as we, together search for the truth. That is, per se, the value of free speech in a Free Republic.
Why are you lying about that thread when it is so obvious that a) she is a Communist b) has a useless degree and c) she never once made any reference to IT, foreigners, and outsourcing.
What is your motive?
I could care less one way or the other about differing viewpoints - I just don't play.
I do, however, have a problem with people deliberately lying in order to enforce their viewpoint.
Free trade threads can get heated.
Go ahead...I'm honored that you saved them.
You tried to get me banned because I exposed you as a racist, and you didn't cotton to that. You then told the admin mod that I was "stalking" you when I told you that I didn't think the admin mod liked the fact that you were lying to try to get me banned because you didn't like the opinions that I was expressing. You lied.
It didn't work. Now the admin mod knows you're a liar. So does everyone else reading this thread.
I didn't originally post to you, nor did I mention you by name, but you responded to my post. Should I tell the admin mod that you are stalking me? Or do you think that maybe you should just refrain from posting to me if you don't like me?
PC and ignorance run amok. And totally unaware.
You should remove post #174 as well, if you're going to remove my reply to it...
Please do try to be evenhanded.
Any particular reason you use such a large and obnoxious font?
I voted for Clinton before I voted against him hehehehe
I still wish FR would use its Conservative Bully Pulpit to push Bush towards sizing down BIG gubermint, but at this point most FReepers seem to concerned in getting him re-elected.
Like John "Da Wimp" Kerry even stands a chance...
Just wait until after the GOP & DNC Conventions, Kerry will be outed as the idiot he is and Dubya's numbers will climb into a double-digit lead.
And that's before the Presidential election debates...MUAHAHA 
Of course, I still have high-hopes that Dubya's REAL conservative nature will come out in his second term and make me eat all the words I have typed about his past and future weaknesses...
I agree with what you said.
My Boston Globe tells me all that I want to know about the liberals---I come here to read the thought of people who think like the way that I think.
What is amazing to me is that there even some hot arguments between conservatives.
I totally avoid threads where I may have strong disagreements with most of the posters,but thank God not everyone does what I do.
More fun that way.
With respect to activism about reducing big government, I find myself slipping into a bit of 'learned helplessness'. That's why I'm going to attend an activism seminar. People from the media do read FR. Take writer33's essay about Rush for instance.
Really? Can you point that out on the thread where exactly that was determined and how. I might note that I gave every opportunity for such a discussion of facts to take place and the people there besmirching this poster could offer only assumption and handwringing. It's in the thread; so, it's not like I have to sit here and make things up. One attacked and stated she was a troll because she had bad spelling and grammer. One called her a troll because of bad spelling. One called her a troll because her post was "incoherent." One took a swipe insinuating she'd called the President evil when she never had. There is nothing in her post that leads one to believe anything other than she wante to vent a complaint on a valid topic. And that's why I put it up as a fine example of what FR is not supposed to be about.
And I don't doubt you wonder about me after I've been here for over 6 years with a long history of posts behind me going to bat for this president, praising him and his policies and even to the extent of stating clearly that I pretty much agree with him accross the board except on free trade and immigration. I'm sure that makes me a vile dispicable human being in your eyes because I actually stand up for someone elses right to be treated like a human being and not arbitrarily muzzled just because you don't happen to like the point of view being expressed. That IS censorship. And there is nothing in the above thread to betray it as anything but.
The standard in our society at the least is innocent till proven guilty. Where's the proof? Or do we in national socialist style just say publicly that the jews are like rats, we have the proof - trust us. And we'll deal with it. Am I calling anyone a Nazi, HELL NO. On the other hand, the larger part of the nasties in the Dem party do call all of us Nazis and it doesn't help matters any when you hand them a public example that looks like we're acting in similar fashion. I'm a conservative republican on a conservative chat site presenting republican points of view. This site has high visibility. And what image it presents either raises me up or tars me along with every other republican. If I weren't a member here and saw the above thread, I'd sign up to post just to take issue with Tammi's maltreatment on no other basis than that.
I try to avoid certain threads BUT can't help it. I'm an opinionated girl.
Thank you.
: )
I can get totally sideways at some of Bush's public pronouncements, mostly when he tries to out-PC Clinton. But.
Any other viable candidate who comes close to being acceptable as U.S. leader is nowhere to be seen even in the longest range scan of my intergalactic spaceship.
Regarding defending our righteousness, another poster made that comment. Inbteresting that you can now get into his thought process.
In your two replies to me you're 0 for 2. Wanna try for 0 for the thread?
Yeah... we old farts hoped that about Reagan too. Don't get me wrong; I wish he were still in charge. But, when it came to the hardcore, right wing firebrand this conservative was hoping for, Reagan governed moderately in his second term--more so than in his first (The Department of Education survived, for instance). I've heard others more intelligent in their conservatism than I (not too hard to do) say that, "in history, presidents are more liberal in their second terms." Why? Perhaps they are more aware of their "legacy" in a second term. Just spekuhlatin.
Okay, I'm sorry too. *big hugs and smoochies*.
:^)
You are losing it dude. I know, I can just ignore your posts, but that would reinforce your illusion that you make sense.
Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law is one thing.
Acting like an idiot when an obvious sicko makes up facts to present an attack on our government is quite another. I suppose you actually believe that no one makes up stories to "illustrate" a loser point? e.g "I voted republican all my life and am a real true conservative, but blah blah blah..." gets your PC pompous juices running, does it?
I certainly hope so!
I looked up Tammy Weigand and only found a nursing student's resume. Go figure. I've seen discussions about joblessness before, but don't doubt the leftist media's campaign to smear the President.
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