I am starting to think going to Iraq was a mistake

Start reading up on Islam, infidel. It's them against us. All of us, until the last radical islamic idiot is dead.

Come on, bin RinaseofDs, do you really think this is a battle to the death of 'us' (whoever us is) against Islam? And that we need to kill them all to win? We'd better get some bigger guns then, because we've only killed about 14,000 of them so far with 1.3 billion to go. And at the rate we are going we'll need 65 million troops to do it; of course by then we'll probably have to fight off the rest of the 3 billion non-Christians and most of the God-loving ones amongst 'us' as well...a tall order for this man's Army. This is not a Crusade!

we'd be just like them and that isn't the way Americans do things. We're waging an American style war, a 21st century war.

In WWII we fire bombed Dresden and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. In Hiroshima and Nagasaki we did likewise. So yes, when pushed to it, Americans do these things. As far as the 21st century war you describe, I would feel better about it's success if there were a historical example of it working.

This is not a conscripted military. They all want to be there, they all want to do their jobs and they all know the risks.

Be real.

At least 40% of them are Reservists or Guardsmen. Most joined up to help themselves through college or to supplement a lower middle class family budget.

A gullible GWB was sold a bill of goods by Wolfowitz and his ilk and, as it always has been and always will be, these poor folks pay the price.

I'm not gonna pick this up with you.

I have family there.

March or die.

Excellent reply!

"Do your homework. The Werewolves were created for the precise purpose of killing Americans and German collaborators and committing acts of sabotage AFTER Germany fell militarily."

If in fact these Germans killed American soldiers after May 1945, I'd like to pass it on to my brother who claimed that no such thing happened after the war ended, contradicting a claim by Ann Coulter of the same. I am not sure where to look on this Q for the historical record, hence my question about timeframe here on FR.

I know you had a column about the German occupation generally, comparing with Iraq, back in fall. It was quite informative, thanks.

History will be President Bush's ultimate judge. He's more likely to get a favorable decision if he can get a decisive win.

Barring a miracle, he'll be outa there well before election day ... win, lose, or draw.

"Their impatience is almost palpable. "

Their impatience is solely with the fact that conservatives and Republicans exist in US Government. Had Clinton been President, every single critic of the President would have been called a traitor and the liberal cartoonists would have had them in league with Bin Laden giving aid and comfort to the enemy. they exhibited no concern for the "serbian street" when we bombed belgrade, and no concern that clinton's 'home by christmas' claim was missed by about 9 christmases.

Kennedy, Kerry and others are willing to put partisanship above patriotism ... THEY HATE BUSH MORE THAN THEY LIKE THE IDEA OF WINNING AGAINST TERRORISTS AND MAKING IRAQ FREE. THEY WILL SACRIFICE IRAQ AND AMERICA"S STANDING IN THE WORLD TO WIN THE WHITE HOUSE.

If Iraq had nothing to do with Al Qaeda, why did Al Qaeda bomb Spain to get their troops out Iraq?

Al Qaeda doesn't want petroleum engineers anywhere in the middle east, much less troops.

We did not start this war. I remember where I was when I first heard about the first plane hitting the first WTC tower. And every since I have learned more and more about the hatred some (a lot) have for America and desire our demise and it did not start with George W. Bush taking office. Hang in there, when Iraq is said and done it still will not be over. It will be a long hard slog.

This is a very good observation. Some of us understand that Operation Iraqi Freedom is just one part of a wider, bigger broader struggle, the Global War on Terror. A struggle that was ongoing well before 9/11 but most of us only recognized on that fateful day ... and which some STILL dont fully grasp! ... Others dismiss Iraq as some token 'optional' war. But our GWOT is against particular ideas and actions, and Saddam was in the thick of it, along with other regimes.

Nope. Didn't say that. I said that the terrorist threat was what the war was all about. Did I mention WMDs? The threat was there, and, in my mind, still is. The war was "sold" on the basis of a threat to our national security (CORRECTOMUDO and as a preemptive strike to get WMDs out of the hands of terrorists again, CORRECTOMUNDO. But Americas do understand the language of liberty, and just as the war vs. Nazi Germany was not based so much on "getting" Hitler as it was "liberating" Europe, we use the rhetoric that is available.

But you can use whatever justification you want. The war was right, and the side effect of liberty for the Iraqis is good.

On Islam, while I do NOT agree that it is a "religion of peace," all westerners should understand that Muslims are no more "devout" than 90% of the so-called "Christians" who do not practice their religion nor understand what is in the scripture. Now, from my perspective, this is good---it means that most Muslims either do not know that their religion calls for jihad (and this does men forcible conversion) or blood; or they just do not accept it (the way most Catholics do not, apparently, accept the Pope's rulings on birth control).

I've known, in passing, a number of Muslims and they just don't think their holy books call for "jihad." It is somewhat IRRELEVANT if they are wrong---it is more important to know if their view is the dominant one, and if Muslims, on the whole, are either mis-informed or simply disobedient to their own scripture. Either way, it then means they don't pose any threat to us---only the "obedient" and "obeservant" ones do, IF they read their own holy books the way I read them. (Again, this isn't always the case either: look at the differences between Unitarians and Southern Baptists.)

So...where are we going to start eliminating radical Islam?....

Well, there were at least 3 better places to start:

1)Saudi Arabia

2)Iran

3)Pakistan

I know, and I suspect you know, why we started where we did.

So...where are we going to start eliminating radical Islam?....

Well, there were at least 3 better places to start:

1)Saudi Arabia

2)Iran

3)Pakistan

I know, and I suspect you know, why we started where we did.

Absolutely. But you would agree that SOME people of all backgrounds, ethnic groups, and nationalities crave freedom. God put that spark in the human soul. While not all acknowledge it, it exists nonetheless---the spark of independence that we may CHOOSE to be dependent on Him.

So the question is if:

1) we care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do (something we could only have known in hindsight

There's your problem. I don't think that is correct. What has happened is that we have done their hard work for them. It's not that they don't care -- its just that they think its easier for us to do the heavy lifting.

We cannot know how much they care, and whether they're up to the task, until we start forcing them to accept more responsibility within their own country. As we draw back, there will be a vacuum. Either the moderate Iraqis step in and meet the challenge, or it all falls apart. We don't know yet which will happen because we've been their crutch for more than a year now.

That's one reason its essential that we move forward on June 30. Give them the reins, and see if they can handle it. But until that happens and they fail, I'm not yet ready to throw in the towel.

Semper Fi.

Ahh, gotta read your polls carefully. There is no timetable on that. Other questions in THAT SAME POLL say that they want "security" and they know that in the next year or so, that means us. This divergence has been commented upon by Dan Senor, the top military liason in Bagdhad, as long as three weeks ago.

"In WWII we fire bombed Dresden and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. In Hiroshima and Nagasaki we did likewise. So yes, when pushed to it, Americans do these things. As far as the 21st century war you describe, I would feel better about it's success if there were a historical example of it working."

There is no comparison to the actions that were necessary against Dresden, Nagasaki and Hiroshima during WWII and having to eradicate pockets of tenacious insurgents in Iraq today. As far as a historical example of an effective 21st century war ..... well, uh, there wouldn't be one yet.... cause.... its new.... seewhatImean ?

I hate to do this, but here's a Christian theologian's analysis of Islam. There are essentially two types, and while we don't need to kill all of them, we are going to probably have to kill some of them.

I apologize in advance at the size of the post, but here's an expert's view (by Dr. James Dawson)

Primer on Islam:

President Bush and the Terrorism Coalition are trying hard to convince the world that the war on terrorism is not a war against Islam. We are told that the Muslim religion is a religion of peace and tranquility. The word Islam is an Arabic word that means submission, but in the religious context it means submission to Allah (god). The past tense of the word Islam is Aslam which means surrendered. Our Lord Jesus Christ said we should love our enemies, but this is very hard to do.
When events like 9/11 are caused by militants that attributed the action to their religion. We ought to love the Muslim people as God loves all of us in spite of our faults. So communicate to Muslims that although you are aware of how their belief conflicts with yours, you still love them.

The word Islam and the word peace are supposed to be synonymous, but to have peace with the Muslim people when they are in power has to be by surrendering to the rule of Islam.

Muhammad was the Founder of Islam: He was born in the city of Mecca in Arabia about A.D. 570. His father, Abdullah, died before Muhammad was born. His mother, Amina, died when he was
about six years old, and he was adopted by an uncle, Abu Talib. At age twenty five Muhammad
married his employer, a wealthy widow named Khadijah, who was about fifteen years older than him. During her lifetime Muhammad had no other wife, though after her death he had at least ten. Another wife of his died before him, and the other nine were forbidden to marry after his death.

Mecca, today's capital of Islam, was a trading and pilgrimage center and a center of idol worship.
The central shrine was known as the Kaaba, meaning "cube". It is a black stone, built into the corner and said to have come down from heaven. Muhammad proclaimed that only Allah was to be worshiped and that the Kaaba was first built by Adam, the first prophet, and later rebuilt by the prophets Abraham and Ishmael. This is based on the idea that the Garden of Eden was in the area, but Scripture states the Garden of Eden was on Mount Zion (in Israel).

EZE 28:13 - 16[KJV]
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. .......till iniquity was found in thee. ....I cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:

Islam's symbol is the crescent, to be placed on top of their mosques, and Islam uses the lunar calendar. It is ironic that the moon god was the god which was most worshiped in Mecca, the
cradle area of Islam. Muhammad decreed the continuation of the annual pilgrimage (called Hadji)
to Mecca, which is still observed. The Arab tribes were continually at war with each other, much like the tribes in Afghanistan and religion and territorial control caused fighting between the Arabian tribes. It needed a powerful religious leader like Muhammad to give them unity and purpose. When Muhammad was about forty years old, he reported that the angel Gabriel gave him a revelation from Allah and he claimed many more such revelations before his death. In Mecca Muhammad
preached tolerance, and faced fierce opposition. Some of his followers went to Christian Ethiopia,
and then to the city of Yathrib which was later called Medina. Muhammad went to Yathrib himself, appearing to his followers as the great militant leader, and this is considered as the birth of Islam and the beginning of the Muslim lunar year. This day is called the Hidra, which is celebrated all over the Muslim world today.

During the following years Muhammad worked himself into a position of power by attacking and plundering rich caravans. He grew in political and military power and the nearby tribes began to follow his teaching and accept his leadership and he conquered Mecca with a force of ten
thousand men. He died from food poisoning. Muhammad's messages dealt primarily with civil
and religious rules for living. The religious ones, the five pillars of Islam, include the rituals of repeating the creed (Shahadah), prayers (Salat) in Arabic five times daily, giving alms to the needy brothers within their faith (Zakat), fasting (Saum) during the entire lunar month of Ramadan, and pilgrimage to Mecca (Hadji) at least once in a lifetime. Muhammad also granted exclusive right of divorce to the husband, and permitted polygamy, the taking of concubines, and imposed the veil on his women. He placed Muslim women in a position of inferiority.

The Sacred Book of Islam, the "Quran", consists of what Muhammad claimed to be the actual words of Allah. Muslims believe that the Quran was written in heaven before the creation of the world and revealed word by word to Muhammad. Muhammad's followers memorized what he said and/or tattooed his words on their bodies and on animal skins, and wrote on clay bricks and palm branches. Othman, who is Muhammad's third successor, realized that Muhammad's words were getting lost and eaten by animals, so he made an effort to collect everything "Quranic" attributed to Muhammad. This came to nearly the size of our New Testament. The Quran has a poetic rhythm, but the translation strikes the non-Muslim reader as tedious, repetitious, and prosaic.

The Quran is written in Arabic, which Muslims consider as the only authorized language to be used in their religious services throughout the world, regardless of what the local language may be. They believe that it earns them merit to read the entire Quran, especially during the month of Ramadan. Children are often taught to "read" the Quran in Arabic, without knowing its meaning. The Quran is to be understood literally as it doesn't contain allegory, but it is hard for a non-

Muslim who does not know the language to cope with its extreme wordiness.

Muhammad gave instructions to kill those who don't believe in Allah. This was in the second phase of his religious life when he became militant, whereas his words in the first phase of his religious life were full of tolerance, as he was helpless and in the minority. Muslims call these two phases after the two cities in today's Saudi Arabia. They call the first phase after Mecca, the appeasing phase, and the second phase after Madina, the aggressive phase, where Muhammad triumphed in military power. The following are taken from the Quran.

APPEASING: Surah 73:10 Allah tells Muhammad to be patient with his opponents "Be patient with what they say, and part from them courteously."
AGGRESSIVE: "Surah 2:191 Allah orders him to kill his opponents. . "Kill them wherever you find them ..."

APPEASING: Surah 2:256 Allah tells Muhammad not to impose Islam by force. "There is . . . . .no compulsion in re1igion.
AGGRESSIVE: "Surah 2:193 Allah tells him to kill whoever rejects Islam . ."Fight (kill) them until there is no persecution and the religion is Allah's."

APPEASING: Surah 29:46 Allah tells Muhammad to speak nicely to the people of the Book (Christians and Jews) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "Reason with the people of the Book (Christians and Jews), and say, we believe in what has been sent down to us and sent down to you. Our Allah is the same as your God, and we are surrendered to him.
AGGRESSIVE: "Surah 9:29 Allah tells him to fight the people of the Book "Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the last day...and fight the people of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior."

Islamic Law (Shariaa) is taken from both the Quran and from Muhammad's Sunna (traditions), which Muslims believe to be perfect and ought to be followed. Muhammad's traditions deal with every human activity, even the most intimate. In every Muslim country there is an authorized interpreter of these laws, with the right to issue new decrees according to circumstances. For example, there are details of when and how to trim fingernails and toenails, or how to enter and leave a room or mosque, getting into and out of bed, eating, sexual relations, the elimination of body waste, and so on.

After Muhammad died, the Arab Muslim tribes began fighting among themselves again until Muhammad's successor reunited them. The united Muslim missionary soldiers from the Arabian Peninsula defeated the declining empires of Persia, Byzantium and Rome, making a great empire from Afghanistan to Spain. The population of the area, which had been nearly 90% Christian, became more than 90% Muslim, and more than 3200 churches were either destroyed or converted to mosques.

Another Islamic leader, also called Othman (A.D. 1300), established the Ottoman Empire in Turkey. This empire grew steadily until it controlled the Near East, most of North Africa, and the Balkan states, conquering and forcing the religion of Islam upon the peoples. About the same time, the great Muslim Moghul Empire overran the northern part of India. During this period Islam penetrated into the East Indies and as far as the southern part of the Philippines.

In the twentieth century, Islam is proselytizing more people than any other religion in Africa, America and Europe. Mosques have been established in most large cities of Europe and North America, not to mention the Black Muslim movement in the US. Now Islam is seeing strong growth, stimulated by a vigorous Islamic literature program which includes criticism of the Christian belief.

After the Arabs were united under the banner of ISLAM, the new religion founded by Muhammad, their soldiers conquered the Middle East and beyond invited people to adopt the religion of Islam, or to pay monetary tributes with submission, otherwise be tortured to death. Also they forced their Arabic language on all schools and official departments. Their schools and many agencies are sponsored by the Saudi oil money, today, and they teach against the basic values of the west and Christianity. They succeeded in changing the nations' previous identities, wiping out all non-Arabic influence. The exceptions to this were countries like Iran and Turkey which maintained their original languages. So now generally the Muslim countries in the area
are called Arab countries. However, the Arab world with all the associated countries as we
know them today did not exist before Islam occupied the region in the 7th century.

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, was able to create a powerful patriotism by linking himself and his followers to Abraham through Ishmael. He also propagated the idea that Abraham and Ishmael were the first to dedicate the black stone in Mecca as the central place for worshiping his god "Allah". Muhammad hoped for the support of both Jews and Christians, who appreciate Abraham as the father of their faith and of the prophets. When Jews and Christians didn't support Muhammad's views, he declared in his holy book (Surah 3: 67) that Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but a good Muslim. Muhammad also (in Surah 4: 46) covered his conflicts with the Bible by claiming that Jews and Christians have corrupted the Bible.

The following are some of the anti-Gospel Doctrines of Islam, from the Quran and Sunna.: My comments are in brackets [].
1- Islam is the final revelation that came seven centuries after Christ. The god of Islam is sovereign.
2- There is no original sin to be inherited. (Surah 20: 121,122; 2: 37) [Islam claims sin started when Satan refused to honor Adam.]
3- One good deed cancels 10 bad deeds, along with giving alms to the needy brothers within their faith. (Surah 6: 160) [There is no need for a Savior to forgive sins.]
4- The word of God in the Bible has been corrupted and was superseded by Allah's revelation to Muhammad. (Surah 4:46)
5- The Trinity of God is false, and so the Christians are no better than pagans. (Surah 4: 171) [The Muslim consider it blasphemy to say Jesus was the Son of God - but the Quran gives Jesus the title "Spirit of God" which is a higher title than prophet 64 times.]
6- Another name for Gabriel the Angel is the Holy Spirit. (Surah 2: 87,253, 16: 102) [The Muslim and the Quran deny the trinity and the Holy Spirit.]
7- Christians worship Jesus' mother, Mary. (Surah 5:1 16) [Many Catholics are placing Mary as the fourth person in the Godhead. Pope John Paul II has dedicated his reign as Pope
to Mary]
8- Christ is only a man - not Allah. He was not crucified, but instead Allah rescued and lifted him from earth. (Surah3: 59;4:157) [This implies that Christ did not die for our sins and was not resurrected from the dead.]
9- Jesus will come before the end days to proclaim that Islam is his religion, to break the crosses, to kill the pigs, to marry and have children. [This is why the Muslims are trying to keep Jerusalem, because Jesus is returning to Zion and if the Muslims are not in charge of Zion
it will show they are not the true religion. This is the same reason the Vatican is trying to
make Jerusalem an International Free City with the Catholic church as the protector in charge.]
10- Jesus came only for Israel, and to prophesy about the coming of Muhammad, who came for the whole world. (Surah 61:6)
11- Christians rejected Muhammad out of stubbornness, just as the Jews rejected Christ. (Surah
5:9s)
12- Islam will eventually conquer and rule the world. (Surah 61: 13) [This is the driving force
behind Bin Laden he wants to be the "Messiah" of the Muslim world. Islam must
conquer the world and bring all to Allah - this is a basic tenet of Islam. All the Islamic
nations will follow the lead of whoever can show the power to accomplish this. This is not
the Antichrist of the Bible.]
13- There is no difference between religion and state. (Surah 33: 38,62) [Islamic law should govern all aspects of human life.]
14- Muslims should live at peace with non-Muslims when they have to, but in general a Muslim should not be loyal to a non-Muslin. The basic rule is that non-Muslims should surrender to Islam, or be fought against and tortured. (Surah "The Spoils"6: 12-17; 9: 14; 3: 118) [The
Muslim will tell you what ever suits his purpose. Saudi Arabia is sponsoring terrorism but
telling us they are our friends. Iran is a part of the war on terrorism, but has just supplied
the Palestinian Authority with 50 tons of arms and munitions. They will lie when it suits
their needs, they can not be trusted.]

Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell
you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other
also" (Mat.5:39). As far as I am concerned we are following the above teachings. The Destroyer
Cole was attacked in 1999 by terrorist, the WTC was attacked in September 2000. We have
turned the other cheek now we have no further instructions. We have declared war on the
terrorist where ever and who ever they are.

Allah (the god) of Islam not only justifies killing, but also orders Muslims to terrorize on his behalf, when possible, those who don't submit to his rule (the Jihad). The sacred book of Islam says, "Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims) and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. " "I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them It is not you who slew them; it was Allah." Muhammad said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say none has the right to be worshiped but Allah." (Al Bukhari vol 4:196).

It is worth noting here that the words "fight" and "kill" appear in the Quran more frequently than the word Pray. Martyrdom is also encouraged, and the incentive is an instant, luxurious heaven. "And if you are slain, or die in the way of Allah,(Jihad, Holy War) forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass." (Surah 9:14, Surah 8:12-17, Surah 3:157). The only assurance a Muslim has of going to heaven is through fighting for the cause of spreading Islam (Jihad), and being martyred in the process.

Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim man will be reclining, eating meat and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with beautiful, heavenly women, and there are also eternally-young, beautiful males. There is no mention of women's rewards. (Surah 52:17, 19, 20, 22-24 and Surah 4:57; Surah 76:12-22; Surah 55:54-56; Surah 47:15)

Islam drives the community to keep an eye on its individuals, allowing no way of quitting. There is a real threat of being excommunicated, and physically tortured and tormented by the cutting of bodily parts, and even execution.

The Quran teaches that
1- earthly women are inferior to the beautiful, heavenly virgin women. Allah has promised to give 40 and more of those heavenly women to those who submit to him and are willing to die for the cause of gaining more physical territory for Islam. (Surah 55: 54-56; 37: 48-49)
2- Allah encourages polygamy, saying, ". . . . . . . . . . . . . marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable." (Surah 4:3)
3- Women's minds are deficient. (Hadith vol. 3:826)
4- The woman's share of the inheritance is half that of the man. (Surah 4: 11)
5- Wives are subject to punishment and beating by the husband. (Surah 4:34)
6- In the court, the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women. (Surah 2:
282)

Fundamentalist Muslims are the ones who don't waste any opportunity for aggression in reinforcing Islam for the cause of gaining more physical territory, following in the footsteps and instructions of Muhammad, the founder of Islam But the moderate Muslims want to start first with what is acceptable by the civilized world. Muslim groups might argue, and even fight and kill each other, but they still have the one spirit and loyalty to the same Allah (god). When conflict develops between Muslim and non-Muslim, they will support their Islamic brothers regardless of any internal conflict.

The area now occupied by Islam used to be 90% Christian, and more than 3200 churches have either been destroyed or converted to mosques since the invasion of Islam. The remaining Christians have to be treated as second-class citizens, restricted and humiliated daily, such as in work, worship and in the law courts, and cannot be protected against the Muslim majority. Many are killed and massacred. Others, in order to secure their families' lives, are converting to Islam. In recent years in Egypt alone 15,000-30,000 annually have been doing this. However, the converts to Christianity are to be killed.

The US has been told by essentially all of the Islamic states that we should not spread our war on terrorism beyond the borders of Pakistan. They claim the other terrorist are really freedom fighters. But President Bush told the world at the UN that they could not pick and choose their terrorists, we will go after them where ever and who ever they are, and they are either with us or
against us. When we do go against one of the other Muslim nations that sponsor or harbor
terrorist it will result in a war with all Islam.

The loss-exchange ratios since Al-Sadr called his jihad have been one-sided and in US forces' favor.

Body counts?

Do you forget that not only these 6th century idiots relish their deaths, but their mother's do, too?