I am starting to think going to Iraq was a mistake

MMI | 4/30/04 | MDP

[Check_Your_Premises]

As an avid supporter of the President's Iraq policies, the last few days have been difficult for me. The number of casualties seemed to reach a "critical mass" for me. I found myself simply not caring to sacrifice anymore of our brave soldiers for Iraqi independence and democracy. Screw 'em.

I was not sure why I began to feel this way. As I said I am an avid supporter of the plan to bring an oasis of freedom and liberty to the 12th century toilet that is the middle east. It seemed to me that if we are to end terrorism we have to destroy the sources, which are the failed states and ideology of that region.

Why not? We have succeeded at such things in the past. We transformed post war Germany and Japan into thriving and peaceful democracies. Unfortunately, we have also failed at such things in the past. Of course, I am speaking of the war that Teddy Kennedy's brother got us into.

The one problem I had with liberating Iraq from Saddam's clutches is that we were removing one of the most important steps to the forming of a successful democracy. The successful overthrow of tyranny is a process that produces the type of leaders that are required to bring the successful transition from tyranny to liberal democracy. By liberating Iraq, for the Iraqis we were not allowing their "Founding Fathers" to become. It is of course worth noting that such leaders may never have been produced.

It seems to me now that the war in Iraq suffers from the same fatal flaw as the war in Vietnam. I may be speculating here, but it seems we simply cared more than the South Vietnamese, that their nation remain free. No American should be expected to die defending the home of another not willing to do the same. In the same sense we seem to care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do themselves. This is why I don't really care anymore. If they truly cared or understood their fate, they would be dying ten to our one. And in that case I think the American people would support them steadfastly. God knows I would.

So what was different about our success stories, Japan and Germany. Well we basically bombed the entire nation back into the stone age. I think their civilians were probably so glad that we weren't going to execute our own "final solution" to the "Japanese and German question", that they were willing to do whatever we said. It is also worth noting that in annhilating their armies we effectively removed any person who would be opposed to our efforts. As George Will put it recently, they "knew they were defeated".

So the question is if:
1) we care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do (something we could only have known in hindsight), and
2)we are not willing to wage total war until all opposition is removed,

than how can we possibly win there?

Well I think you see where I am getting at. General Sherman would probably agree with me. However since we do not have the will to fight this way, it is clear that we cannot win until that fact changes. What could bring such a change of will about? Unfortunately, I think we are victims of our own success in preventing further terrorist attacks. Until every man, woman, child, and leftist acutely feels that they are in grave danger of death at the hands of these murderers, America will not be ready to do what she must to win this war.

Until we are ready, maybe we should hold off on any further "imperialist" adventures in the world's excretory regions.

Semper Fidelis

MDP

[vanmorrison]

I've read the posts here and it seems to me the general dismay that is expressed here is because we aren't really fighting this damn war in a way that will achieve victory. In this respect, this war is indeed like Vietnam. And because we aren't fighting this war to win, the same leftist bastards who led to our defeat in Vietnam have been given an opening to crawl out from the rocks they've been hiding under for the past thirty-five years. The last war we won outright was World War Two. Why can't we make that the model for conducting this world-wide campaign, rather than using every half-assed failure (Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War One) that we've suffered since then? I think this is the root of the problem.

And yes, I ultimately agree with the opinion that if we aren't going to fight this thing with everything we've got, including going after the mad Moslem murderers without cease, and cutting our own home-grown fifth-column traitors off at the knees, then we should, indeed, get the hell out of Iraq, Afghanistan, and everywhere else.

[RSmithOpt]

MEGA BUMP!!!!!!

[Valin]

1) we care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do (something we could only have known in hindsight), and
2)we are not willing to wage total war until all opposition is removed

Your screen name provides you with some good advice.

Why do you FEEL the vast majority of Iraqis don't care about freedom?
A couple of Iraqi blogs
IRAQ THE MODEL
http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

Healing Iraq
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/

Iraq & Iraqi`s
http://www.iraq-iraqis.blogspot.com/
These blogs and others linked to them will provide you with another view of what's really going on in Iraq.(note not all Iraqi blogs are pro-CPA

2)we are not willing to wage total war until all opposition is removed

By this I assume you mean going in guns ablazing.
The reason is simple, that's just what the bad guys want us to do. It would allow them to say "See the Americans really want to rule us, and will destroy anyone who stands against them. Second reason, that's just what Saddam would do, and did. We're better than that.
Remember the reason we went into Iraq in the 1st place.

[Stentor]

I found myself simply not caring to sacrifice anymore of our brave soldiers for Iraqi independence and democracy.

Your first premise is incorrect.

[Sam the Sham]

The use of the Tory analogy is extremely flawed.

Yes, there were significant Tory military formations. But at no point were the Tories ever able to control a single colony. When the British evacuated Philadelphia the local Tories packed up and left with them. Apparently the idea of holding Philadelphia all by themselves was out of the question.

We cannot create a new Iraqi political class. Who are we negotiating with in Fallujah ? Chalabi ? The Governing Council ? Of course not. Only the local clan and religious leaders can actually speak for the people and they are not supporting our efforts.

[Congressman Billybob]

You DO realize that the current Iraq War is the least bloody war in American history (43 deaths per month)? You DO realize that the second lowest "blood price" in war was the American Revolution (55 per month)?

You DO realize that we had 1% of today's population at the time of the Revolution, so the equivalent deaths now would be 5,500 per month? You DO realize that your comment is therefore the equivalent of saying, "The US should never fight a war, any time, for any reason."? You DO realize that if George Washington and the others had held your views, we would be playing "God Save the Queen" before baseball games?

Or to use other examples, you DO realize the US would have split in half forever at the time of the Civil War? You DO realize that the Nazis would be controlling Europe today?

You DO realize that your comment is geopolitical nonsense?

Congressman Billybob

Latest column, "Honesty Problems with Kerry and Gorelick: Pin the Truth on the Democrat."

[Dead Dog]

I'm beginning to think Mobie was a mistake.

[Junior_G]

The data to support my assertion that we care more about the Iraqi's freedom than they do is that I don't see them fighting and dying in droves to win it.

Yeah, but if the Iraqis suddenly took up arms and tried to "help" us fight, wouldn't our guys just shoot them?

[cinFLA]

Now you are blaming an administration that had only been in place for a few months for 9/11. You would be better off with your pals over at DU.

[Valin]

Your help is needed.

[Check_Your_Premises]

You are right. I should have been more clear. I do not think removing Saddam was a mistake. All thumbs up in that regard. I do think trying to bring democracy might be, because THE AMERICAN PEOPLE (not me) do not have the will to do what is necessary.

[John Lenin]

It's clowns like O'Reilley who go on the air and start talking about polls in Iraq that show the Iraqi people are nervous about whats going on. I swear Bill is more of a nusiance to the cause than he is an asset, he reminds me of a thirteen year old girl who lets other peoples thought controlhim. One minute the guy is saying we are doing the right thing and have to stick it out the nxt minute he is saying maybe we should pull out. Who cares what the Iraqi people think, we are there to pull out now would be assinine. Too many people let other people think for them. Sure I have doubts at times but this is still a war and there are going to be good weeks and bad weeks.

[WhiteGuy]

"If our goal is to fight terrorism (terrorism being any efforts against US freedom) we need to take the fight to many more battles all around the world."

Indeed.

It could be argued that your definition of terrorism is exactly correct.

If true, the fight should be focused within the borders of the 48 contiguous states, IMO.

That battle is not going our way.

[tiamat]

We all start to wonder on a bad day, especially if we have family involved.

Personally, I don't think the Iraqis can HANDLE either self-rule OR democracy..If I had unlimited resources, I'd do some "Pax Americana" on them for about 20 years, until the currnt generation has gotten old or died out.

Some things, the Romans did right.

But I AM the Bronze-Age Gal!

[dfwgator]

Pearl Harbor would have both got us into the war and got us out - on the same day.

Geez if it were up to him we would have baled out after Corregidor.

[RSmithOpt]

BUMP!!!

If you don't keep your eye on the tiger....he will eat you.

There are things worth dying for. Haven't we lost American lives in the Balkans preventing the extermination of the ethnic Albanians (Muslims) by the Serbs? What is the difference....... someone please tell me? Guess we can only lose American lives under Democratic presidents protecting ourselves and others. Some people don't have the courage to risk their own life for any ideal, no matter how good it is.

[LS]

I don't see where VDH and I disagree. Of course, not ALL share the view that people want to be free (modern liberals are a good example :) and I think that people who have not had freedom before are indeed somewhat like children who need to "grow" into it. Our nation wasn't born with a Declaration of Independence---it is a history of the Magna Charta, the "Glorious Revolution," and Parliamentary rule that stood in opposition to monarchical rule.

I think the MOST of the Iraqis will come around; and many are already willing to "fight for freedom." But it is tough to just "create" a new Iraqi government and expect people to just "be loyal." That will take time, and the Iraqi government must earn that loyalty. In the meantime, I wager that 50% of the people are with us, but quietly so; 25% are with us demonstrably; and 25% are totally opposed to us and everything we stand for. Our job---and it's not a quick one---is to kill the 25% who hate us without alienating the 50% who quietly support us.

[LS]

Use whatever term you want. Insurgency works well---an attempt to overthrow a government (in this case, us). Count or don't count what you want. Bottom line, the odds are all in the favor of those putting down the resistance/insurgency.

[Quix]

Iraqi citizens are worthy enough reason to a point.

But far more important is the general good/evil battle it is but a subset of.

Now, if, as likely, it turns out to be a massive manipulation of the world by the puppet masters . . . that will be a more complex cause and effect thing to ponder.

Nevertheless,

it is sheer idiocy to sit passively by while the very destructive, deadly Jihadi's earnestly work for our extermination.

They, as a great speech/article noted hereon recently--THEY must be fought to THEIR DEATHS.

REGARDLESS of the price. They will not let up. We cannot.

[Congressman Billybob]

Do your homework. The Werewolves were created for the precise purpose of killing Americans and German collaborators and committing acts of sabotage AFTER Germany fell militarily. ALL of their activities, until they were wiped out, happened in parts of Germany held by the Allied powers.

The sabotage and killings continued for more than a year after Hitler was dead and Germany had surrendered. However, the killings were at a lower rate than in Iraq today. The fact that millions of young Germans had either been killed or were in prison camps probably led to the lower death rate. Even a guerilla army needs young men as recruits.

Congressman Billybob

Latest column, "Honesty Problems with Kerry and Gorelick: Pin the Truth on the Democrat."