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I am starting to think going to Iraq was a mistake
MMI | 4/30/04 | MDP

Posted on 04/30/2004 9:16:18 AM PDT by Check_Your_Premises

As an avid supporter of the President's Iraq policies, the last few days have been difficult for me. The number of casualties seemed to reach a "critical mass" for me. I found myself simply not caring to sacrifice anymore of our brave soldiers for Iraqi independence and democracy. Screw 'em.

I was not sure why I began to feel this way. As I said I am an avid supporter of the plan to bring an oasis of freedom and liberty to the 12th century toilet that is the middle east. It seemed to me that if we are to end terrorism we have to destroy the sources, which are the failed states and ideology of that region.

Why not? We have succeeded at such things in the past. We transformed post war Germany and Japan into thriving and peaceful democracies. Unfortunately, we have also failed at such things in the past. Of course, I am speaking of the war that Teddy Kennedy's brother got us into.

The one problem I had with liberating Iraq from Saddam's clutches is that we were removing one of the most important steps to the forming of a successful democracy. The successful overthrow of tyranny is a process that produces the type of leaders that are required to bring the successful transition from tyranny to liberal democracy. By liberating Iraq, for the Iraqis we were not allowing their "Founding Fathers" to become. It is of course worth noting that such leaders may never have been produced.

It seems to me now that the war in Iraq suffers from the same fatal flaw as the war in Vietnam. I may be speculating here, but it seems we simply cared more than the South Vietnamese, that their nation remain free. No American should be expected to die defending the home of another not willing to do the same. In the same sense we seem to care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do themselves. This is why I don't really care anymore. If they truly cared or understood their fate, they would be dying ten to our one. And in that case I think the American people would support them steadfastly. God knows I would.

So what was different about our success stories, Japan and Germany. Well we basically bombed the entire nation back into the stone age. I think their civilians were probably so glad that we weren't going to execute our own "final solution" to the "Japanese and German question", that they were willing to do whatever we said. It is also worth noting that in annhilating their armies we effectively removed any person who would be opposed to our efforts. As George Will put it recently, they "knew they were defeated".

So the question is if:
1) we care more about the freedom of the Iraqi people than they do (something we could only have known in hindsight), and
2)we are not willing to wage total war until all opposition is removed,

than how can we possibly win there?

Well I think you see where I am getting at. General Sherman would probably agree with me. However since we do not have the will to fight this way, it is clear that we cannot win until that fact changes. What could bring such a change of will about? Unfortunately, I think we are victims of our own success in preventing further terrorist attacks. Until every man, woman, child, and leftist acutely feels that they are in grave danger of death at the hands of these murderers, America will not be ready to do what she must to win this war.

Until we are ready, maybe we should hold off on any further "imperialist" adventures in the world's excretory regions.

Semper Fidelis

MDP


TOPICS: War on Terror; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: dnctalkingpoints; drsmith; imperialism; iraq; iraqaftermath; ohwoeisme; quackmire; quagmire; weakkneed; weredoomedisay
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To: Hegemony Cricket
"Sounds as though shrillary would rather allow the fight to come back to us"

Their impatience is almost palpable.

Great 'moniker' ;^); and like your 'tag' as well.

201 posted on 04/30/2004 11:02:38 AM PDT by cricket (Terrorists are weapons of mass destruction. . .)
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To: Check_Your_Premises

As I remember, Saddam had three or four secret police organizations which were always spying and reporting on each other, as well as against all Iraqis.

202 posted on 04/30/2004 11:03:43 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad (x = x + 1)
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To: Check_Your_Premises
The point you're missing is that we're partly there to obtain a good, stable source of oil (oh, yeah, and to free an "oppressed people" like we've always done!</sarcasm>). That's not going to happen unless the nation is itself stable.

Arabs seem only to understand the pressure of a boot placed firmly on their throats, so I suggest we accommodate that need and go about pumping oil!

203 posted on 04/30/2004 11:04:10 AM PDT by The Duke
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To: Alberta's Child
Hello AC

Myself..have worked at the front end of the oil sector for 2 plus decades.
So ya...I fabbed the oil process facilites all thru the Persian Gulf and beyond.
Prior to Gulf War1..we were building Frac process modules for Iran..seems the Russians were slant drilling under the Iranian border..draining their field.
Then the war hit...ban on shipping in the Gulf.
Granted..the consortium we were part of..several U.S. oil giants..they encured the loss as the Iranian project was cancelled..3/4 's completed.
In a bizarre twist..the same consortium had previously enabled Russia with Frac technology and were part of the *Drain the crying Iranians oil play too ..go figure huh : )

I've forwarded just a few idents here as too how vulnerable fiscally we are to Islams terror...anyone googling Oil Security reports is gonna read the mind boggling numbers swelling now in everything from Insurance coverage to contract bidding.

All these big players are not going to eat these losses..they pass down to the consumer.

U.S. funding for military projects is being scapled bigtime by the cost of the war..which runs..to protect oil transfer.
We need Missile defence...Black projects,the Navy is unhappy with a 295 ship force..the Army needs 2-3 addition divisions.

The U.S. is taking this one on the chin here..back home..how many military families needed foodbanks and social help to survive while hubby is in harms way.

Its been hard..severe..and projects to be moreso in the future.

It would be good to see Firms like Halliburton,Brown and Root kick funds in for military vehicle armor upgrades...they should damnit!....Americans are dying and being maimed for life...so that they can spin the big corporate wheel.

To some degree I too am Pissed off at this war...dissed..cuz I know who's making big coin..and where the fiscal losses will eventually end up.

But..this stand in Iraq is critical...a critical window..should we fail..Islam will extort us into ruin.

204 posted on 04/30/2004 11:04:55 AM PDT by Light Speed
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To: arjay
Many of them will never feel free until Saddam is actually dead. They still fear his henchmen that are still left.

Not to worry - his quick trial and execution are being planned even as this thread develops. June 30 is when the provisional government is established, then comes their dealing with Saddam. All during the summer when the Dem. and Rep. conventions are going on.

205 posted on 04/30/2004 11:05:03 AM PDT by brewcrew
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To: B.O. Plenty

So...where are we going to start eliminating radical Islam?....downtown New York? Paris?.....



Michigan and New Jersey would be a good start.
206 posted on 04/30/2004 11:06:07 AM PDT by Wolfhound777 (It's not our job to forgive them. Only God can do that. Our job is to arrange the meeting)
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To: Sam the Sham
No, those would be the ones hiding inside a mosque and carrying around women and children at gunpoint to serve as human shields. Besides, they are currently besieged. Those who are surrounded on all four sides, do not have real estate upon which they can flee.

The loss-exchange ratios since Al-Sadr called his jihad have been one-sided and in US forces' favor. Al-Sadr's will be ground down to nothing in under two months of bombing.
207 posted on 04/30/2004 11:07:34 AM PDT by .cnI redruM (“I have to march because my mother could not have an abortion.”---Maxine Waters)
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Comment #208 Removed by Moderator

To: Check_Your_Premises
one option only: success in Iraq
209 posted on 04/30/2004 11:22:15 AM PDT by muskogee
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To: .cnI redruM
Well I guess the reason I don't see any responsible leadership materializing, is because we don't seem to have anyone to hand over leadership to on the 30th.

And I don't advocate simply pulling out of Iraq. Never once did I say that, although many inferred it. I do wonder if a safe and democratic Iraq is a "doable" thing in the current context. The current context being an election year, a large and vibrant fifth column, and a population that doesn't personally and acutely feel the threat from these people.

What is your opinion, is this country going to see that goal through? I fear our fickle electorate will begin to favor a shameful and cowardly withdrawl.

I guess what I imagine with the olive drab veto, is to keep our forces there on the ground, but withdraw them from direct contact. Let the Iraqis do what they do best... butcher eachother. Our forces would be deployed and available on the ground to perform the function that the Turkish military does, which is to overthrow any government that becomes to fundamentalist.

That might not work either. I am not sure what the answer is.

210 posted on 04/30/2004 11:39:16 AM PDT by Check_Your_Premises (To crush your enemies, and see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the left)
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To: muskogee
All I can say is this: The Iraq part of the puzzle must be for way more than just "the liberation of the Iraqi people", as stated by the President, because the accomplishments of the Iraqi people for the next thousand years will not be worth the life of even the very least of our people who have died for this cause.

History will be President Bush's ultimate judge. He's more likely to get a favorable decision if he can get a decisive win. I'm sure he's focused on the fact that the amount of favorability will be determined by just how the victory is obtained.

211 posted on 04/30/2004 11:39:22 AM PDT by hunter112
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To: Check_Your_Premises
Hang in there Check_Your_Premises. I will not criticize you for what you are feelings, its human to have such emotions.

Some days are and will be bleak. I too get upset when things don't appear to be going well. When even one of the coalition troops are killed, wounded, return with missing limbs. I too get upset with the Iraqi people for not being proactive in fighting for their freedom. But then I remember the threats that we continuously receive from the islamic fundamentalist who want nothing more than to see me and mine dead.

This war is not only about freeing the Iraqi people, it is much more. It is about keeping us free also. In my favorite internet file I keep an article from 2002 of a threat to the American citizens that we all must die because we support our military by paying taxes and that we must convert to Islam or else.

Do I think some mistakes (decisions) were made during Iraqi freedom? Yes, I do.

We did not start this war. I remember where I was when I first heard about the first plane hitting the first WTC tower. And every since I have learned more and more about the hatred some (a lot) have for America and desire our demise and it did not start with George W. Bush taking office.

Hang in there, when Iraq is said and done it still will not be over. It will be a long hard slog.

To the islamic fundamentalist:

Rabka uhalla, your god is not great

212 posted on 04/30/2004 11:39:49 AM PDT by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: Alberta's Child
Somehow, I don't think you were "with me" until any comment.
213 posted on 04/30/2004 11:40:42 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news.)
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To: 68skylark
Well, I take my "optimism" from the words of John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and Abraham Lincoln, who thought liberty the natural inclination of all men.

I agree with many here that the main impediment to this is Islam, which means (guess what?) not "peace" but SUBMISSION. Now, as a Christian who has studied Islam and actually read the "holy books" (including the Hadith, which most people never even know exists), I'm convinced that Islam itself poses a problem for democracy or ANY form of government because the Koran does not really validate political government. Nevertheless, the reality is that 2 billion Muslims almost all acknowledge some government and have for centuries. So from that standpoint, I don't know that Islam (in reality) is any more of an impediment than Shintoism was to the Japanese.

That is why, though, I don't think we can allow Iraq to become a theocratic regime! And while this is not talked about much, especially by Bush, it is a KEY reason we must work for some sort of democracy (no matter how flawed) there because it undercuts the power of the Imams and Mullahs!

214 posted on 04/30/2004 11:47:35 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news.)
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To: Light Speed
Good post Light Speed.
215 posted on 04/30/2004 11:49:49 AM PDT by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: Sam the Sham
Quite the contrary, the numbers are overwhelmingly in our favor. They don't have to wear American uniforms to help us. The "problems" you raise were, in fact, all common to every one of the insurgencies I listed. Often, it was much worse. And in Iraq, we have a trump card that NO previous insurgency has ever had (well, except Mexico in the 1840s) which is that we can bring the dictator back at any time, because WE HAVE HIM!!
216 posted on 04/30/2004 11:49:52 AM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news.)
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To: LS
That is interesting, you mean to threaten the Iraqis with the return of Saddam?

Funny.

I begin to wonder if Saddam's brutality was less a function of his psychopathy, rather it might be the only practical way to govern the Iraqis?

217 posted on 04/30/2004 11:53:40 AM PDT by Check_Your_Premises (To crush your enemies, and see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the left)
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To: Check_Your_Premises
No, I don't accept that. I do not accept that people are animals who respond only to torture.
218 posted on 04/30/2004 12:00:27 PM PDT by LS (CNN is the Amtrak of news.)
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To: Check_Your_Premises
Thoughts? I think you need to get out more - get away from the news media - you are in danger of losing focus. Go plant a garden or something. Tend to a hobby. If you feel the weight of this war and current political scenario is too heavy on you - just wonder how President Bush deals with it 7/24s. Then offer up a prayer for him.
219 posted on 04/30/2004 12:00:48 PM PDT by daybreakcoming
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To: .cnI redruM
I do not expect the loss ratios to be anything but overwhelmingly in our favor.

The problem is this. Militant Islam has a recruiting base in the millions. It is their turf, their home court advantage. They can flow in like fish in the sea. From this perspective, one dead American soldier is a victory. They can keep this up forever.

And as for real estate on which to flee, they can melt back into the population whenever they like.
220 posted on 04/30/2004 12:06:23 PM PDT by Sam the Sham
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