Posted on 04/23/2004 4:21:45 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4
April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.
The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.
Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…
"Off the shelf" quantities don't do it either - we get much bigger quantities than most firearms customers.
Remember that wonderful story during the Vietnam War where Colt workers were "straighting" below-standard M-16 barrels by beating them on the shop floor? Or the numbers of M-16s that jammed up solid during firefights? We don't put up with that anymore.
You haven't been involved with this vital piece of work but you have to have heard of the disaster we had with the M-16 and its shoddy initial design and the lives it cost - and I'm fairly sure you never heard of the problems we've had with garbage 40mm grenade launcher ammo from Milan Army Ammunition Depot that cost some Marines and soldiers parts of their bodies because it went off in the barrel.
If the careful and responsible development of weapon systems and their ammunition adds some costs to weapon acquisition, so what? We're talking about our kids' lives here. Which would you rather pay - $1,700 per pistol or tell some kid's Mom he or she died because his idiot pistol failed?
Personally, I don't care if the new weapon costs tens of thousands of dollars per Marine or soldier as long as we are lead-pipe sure that the son of a gun fires every time they pull the trigger.
As a patriotic American, I'm sure that's your priority too.
As good as that load was I still selected the 45 Auto round unless we were working without logistical support or in a foreign form of dipped and whipped for an alphabet agency. Commercial HP ammo was assigned a DODIC & NSN and was purchased for us. The Ranger stuff from Winchester , Black Talon and then the hydra shok goodies were available to us as HP ammo was and still is authorized for all except a DECLARED CONGRESSIONAL STATE OF WAR.
But most line troops are still issued only ball ammo for mere logistical reasons and thus are not aware that HP ammo was/is authorized in the fight against terrorism vs a uniformed standing army under formal declaration of war where geneva convention rules kick in.
Just how I experienced it before I was reassigned to couch commando status in retirement. My day to day rig is a meltdown 1911A1 that old Jim Clark built for me loaded with 230gr Hydra Shoks and 8 round wilson rogers stainless magazines.
Stay safe SLB !
Here:
There. That's not going anywhere.
British Army WWI vintage .455 Webley top-break revolver. I even have the holster. It's a great old pistol, a little hard to find ammo but I have found a source for brass that's turned down from .45 Long Colt (the .455 round is not only shorter than .45 LC, it has a much thinner rim.) You can still get the big old lead pills for it, but I have a Lee bullet caster just in case.
And some of our guys shot the lights out. It was grabbing the trigger during the recoil that did them in.
It is scary to be in the range with some folks.
Stay Safe !
I should clarify.
Of course there have been "one shot stops" from pistol rounds. Even a .22LR. If you take out the central nervous system, then the ball game is over. Or if the person that is shot is preconditioned (from TV) to "go down" after being hit, that works too.
My point was simply that a handgun round does not exist that is capable of *consistently* stopping the bad guy with only one round. There is no holy grail of handgun rounds.
Either that, or you know absolutely nothing about firearms.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I've taken a couple of classes and I read a lot about guns.
What I've learned about pistols can be summarized by the following two points:
1) A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your rifle, which you shouldn't have left in the first place.
2) When engaged in a fight with a handgun, you keep putting rounds on the target until the threat is stopped. You don't carry your magic "one stop shot" bullets, and then stand there and wait for the threat to drop after only one round.
And here I thought my husband was the only guy who went deer hunting with an FAL!
(Me, I just use my Ruger M-77 bolt action in .308 with a little 4x Leupold. Works great and it weighs a whole lot less. I once took my Lee Enfield No. 4 just for grins, but didn't see a thing and boy was it heavy to tote that thing around the woods. So back to the Ruger.)
You say you don't care how much a weapons system costs, but we're not talking about Star Wars here, we're talking about a handgun. We can save money and equip more soldiers if smart purchasing decisions are made and reasonable cost controls are in place.
You tell me now, how is it that we're spending over $400 billion per year on defense and they haven't added one new division? I think we're getting cheated and it's harming our defense and the soldiers themselves.
This $1,700 pistol is a perfect example. You can spend 1/2 the amount: $850, get an excellent .45, and equip twice as many Marines. You say I don't know anything about procurement. Maybe, but I know plenty about firearms, and there's no rational reason to equip soldiers with top-notch custom guns, which is what you get for $1,700. Are they using them in competition? For the price of this contract you could probably enlist 50 more Marines.
Anyway, they're supposed to be relying their rifles. Replace that junker M16 if you really want to help them.
Plus, 'cause the bad guys know you're armed, they'll drop you first. Purpose of concealed carry is that the goblins aren't sure who is armed (and they would never suspect that a plump, fortyish matron in blue jeans has a .45 in her waistband . . . :-D )
No kidding.... I need to find a Free state to live in where I can do that without getting the SWAT team sent after me :-)
Purpose of concealed carry is that the goblins aren't sure who is armed (and they would never suspect that a plump, fortyish matron in blue jeans has a .45 in her waistband . . . :-D )
Good! I wish more women would carry.
BTW, I *like* the .45 ACP round, and have my Sig 220ST about 2' away as I type this. It's going to be my home defense pistol once I get nightsights put on it. I've already gotten a Surefire X200 light for it-- just need to install the nightsites.
Here's where I buy my empty hulls:
Works out to a little less than a dollar a shell. The powder and the pills are a little more. Plus you can customize your loads.
The only downside is that when you load the 260s with Unique there is a LOT of flash, roar, and partially burned powder residue. (Of course, some people might think that isn't a downside. It does mean plenty of Hoppe's No. 9 and elbow grease when you get home from the range. :-D )
Tell me about it. When my husband and I were first married, we lived in Princeton NJ. He was in the Army Reserves, and he still had to do back flips and jump through a million hoops just to get a permit to PURCHASE his first .45 pistol. He had his CO and two police officers (who were also in his unit) sign his application, and it still took months just to get permission to buy it. Meanwhile, every hood on the street had a non-permitted pistol, and most of the old guys who had come back from WWII still had a Luger or Walther lying around the house . . . NJ laws are so stupid.
He did win a lot of hams and turkeys at turkey shoots while we lived up there. He's just a natural good shot, instinctive pointer (I'm very jealous.) Was on his rifle team in college and qualified expert on everything the Army let him shoot (and he was at Aberdeen for his Officer Basic, so there was lots of fun stuff . . . :-o )
Women have to make so many adjustments to carry. When I wore a suit every day, I carried in a Bianchi Scorpion shoulder holster that rode low enough for me to reach around my anatomy for a cross-draw. I had interchangeable holsters because I carried a Walther PPK in .380 auto in the summer - the Combat Commander just printed too badly through a lightweight suit.
One of the partners in the office was a Marine (there are no ex Marines, right? :-D ) and he surprised me (and himself) by walking into my office one time while I was putting on my coat. That was actually pretty funny. It wasn't generally known that I carried (lot of liberals in the office) but as I told the managing partner, as long as we had to park behind the Union Mission I was toting!
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