Marines Want Their .45s Back

StrategyPage.com ^ | April 23, 2004

[Cannoneer No. 4]

April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.

The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…

[archy]

You're just evil. There are times when evil is A Good Thing; this is one of them.

Oh, very well, I admit it; I'm evil. Wanna go to Afghanistan and help me set a few land mines around a mosque?

[R. Scott]

Possibly after I retired (1986). If it is the one I’m thinking of, I haven’t seen them around here. Isn’t that more of a tactical entry weapon than a standard issue?

[R. Scott]

Local police had been using the local indoor range I belong to until their new range was finished. It was downright scary at times.
The older cops were pretty good - and safe to be around. One was a woman in her 40’s - great shooter. Others were …frightening. One young man in full tactical gear was blazing away and was excited because he actually hit paper at 25 feet - and he burned up the full high capacity mag to do it.
It got to the point that when some of the cowboys came in I left. Several times the overhead return cables were severed.

[R. Scott]

I think it was more a supply decision than a PC decision. The men carried the .45 and the women carried the .38 revolver. That required every MP company to supply and maintain both weapons. Some of the women MPs I knew prefered the .45 - but regulations are regulations.

[FreedomPoster]

I wanna be the guy throwing the 105 rounds into the breech in the AC-130. That's some serious plinking.

[R. Scott]

When I first picked up my .44 it would get a reaction from other shooters - “Who’s got the cannon!”. The only piece I know of that has a greater muzzle blast was a .50 auto. That was a cannon - and it actually had a noticeable kick.

[R. Scott]

A lot of people put the little .22 down - but it’s the favored weapon of the professional assassin.

[Feckless]

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[A Jovial Cad]

*There is really no such thing as a "one shot stop" for a combat pistol round*

You're kidding, right? Either that, or you know absolutely nothing about firearms.

[SLB]

Noses are not the body part I usually hear compared to opinions.

And what would that other part be? :-)

[FreedomPoster]

Great link! Thank you, sir.

[Erik Latranyi]

I just wonder what prompted the U S military establishment to scrap the Model of 1911A1 .45 ACP in favor of the Beretta.

9mm was mandated for NATO ammunition compatibility.

...since earlier we had persuaded NATO to adopt the 7.62 x 54 (.308 Win), then promptly switched to the 5.56 mm in the M 16 format and told Nato to go hell...

Actually, NATO has now adopted the 5.56mm as standard. We gave up the .45, they gave up the .308. We ended up with the smaller cartridge choices predominantly for weight reasons.

...Beretta slides cracking...

Only the first series had this flaw. Beretta corrected the problem quickly and it has not been seen since.

Also, Beretta has a manufacturing facility in Maryland to satisfy DOD requirements and concerns over foreign manufacture.

[Batrachian]

I said in my post that it might include administrative costs, but that still means $1,727 per pistol. You don't think the secretaries, bureaucrats, and bookkeepers are going along with the pistols, do you? $1.9 million for 1,100 pistols is steep, no matter how you slice it.

Besides, with the ball ammo that the military has to use, .45 stopping power isn't that much better than 9mm. We'd be much better off replacing the M16, which really lacks stopping power.

[FreedomPoster]

LOL - I thought I was the only one who did that!

"Honey, I really need a rifle to go hunting with Hugh at his lease." A very nicely-refinished Stg58-based FAL is the result.

[SLB]

Usually these threads have good information

I agree with good information, but logic sometimes is thrown out. Like using the .50 Desert Eagle as a "standard" hand gun. How many "Joes" coming in off the street could qualify? I would venture not many could do so.

Up a few posts, spodefly recommends using CorBon +p 125gr JHP rounds. If the military is stuck on the 9mm why not try something on this line? What is prevent care packages from home from including a box or two of these little goodies?

[Cannoneer No. 4]

I tend to go revolvers, to minimize the screw up under sudden stress factor, since I don't shoot as much as I should.

Me, too. I should be out shooting right now instead of sitting on my fourth point of contact pecking away at my keyboard. Few of us get to shoot as often as is necessary to maintain the skills we once had.

[Mr. Lucky]

A young friend of the family who served in Iraq last year with the 1st Marine Division carried a newer version of the 1911 with a two inch longer barrel. The increased muzzle velocity, even with ball ammunition gave it truly awesome stopping power.

[JOE43270]

What our MARINES want they should have. If they want to borrow mine I'll loan it to them. But to any ANTI gun #!! $%^&* who may be spying this is not an invation to you!

[Cannoneer No. 4]

M11's came in around 1991, I think, and were supposed to go to the same people who used to be issued revolvers: aviators, female MP's, CID. Tankers were supposed to get them, too.

[SauronOfMordor]

The 9mm, or your Sig 357 still has yet to be proven as good a "one shot stop" round in ball ammo as the .45 ACP. All the other fancy "hollow points" and "rapid expansion" rounds are just neat, but sometimes they don't work or fail to feed properly.

I just felt your characterization of .357 as having no more stopping power than 9mm was not necessarily on the mark.

Personally, I agree with you about .45 being the best. That's why my carry gun for many years has been a Glock model 30, with 10 rounds of .45