Marines Want Their .45s Back

April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.

The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…

I'd try a few different 230 ball loads for your pistol and use whichever one was most reliable. How many rounds total do you have through it so far?

long story short, 2 different mags, 1 taurus old, 1 aftermarket new, seems to do a little better with the new one, spring is MUCH stiffer. so far we cant get to the 1/8 reliability when the gun is clean.

I get a failure to feed, rounds seem to be hangin on the ramp &/or a failure to eject,slide pinching case on ejection and also ejector failing to grab the rim. Taurus replaced the firing pin assembly, or at least the pin spring on the first fix. Looks to me like they replaced the ejector on the second try, but when we got it back, it failed to fire the first full clip out of the box.

keep in mind weve tried at least 3 different ball ammos, hy shoks had the same results. probably 400 or so rounds thus far.

the only other clue i have is that the spent primers are being hit a little off center and look to be 'smeared' at the point of striking

that and once we fight through the first 20-30 rounds the gun seems to function well over 90% clean it and the first 20-30 are hang ups till it gets dirty again.

And this is an alloy frame gun, very balanced and accurate, but at this point i just cant trust it to be my wifes defensive piece.

Seriously, I think that many officers just think of the sidearm as another tool, like a radio or a nightstick. They don't consider that it's a tool that needs a heck of a lot more training than just memorizing a bunch of radio codes, and regular practice to boot. The qual should be just a starting point, not the finish line, but as long as the rank and file have the attitude that barely making the minimum score is "good enough," they'll be lousy shots.

You are absolutely correct. I think that the police consider handing out tickets to be more important. Great revenue producer.

Friend of mine (also a gun collector) is an officer in a local municipal department in a little town outside Atlanta. He told me about an encounter between a fleeing armed robber and a couple of their department's officers . . . they cornered the guy in an office park parking lot, and the shooting commenced. So far as the internal investigation could determine, a total of about fifty rounds were fired (two 9mm mags for each of the cops and however many the bad guy had on hand for his Lorcin, say 10) and NOBODY hit ANYTHING except a nearby dumpster which had two holes in it (maybe they were fresh :-o ). They didn't even hit the bad guy's CAR. Apparently he surrendered out of ennui.

That's embarrassing for everyone concerned.

My friend's a good shot. All the gun nuts at my job went down to the local range on our lunch hour a couple times and put a lot of lead through paper. He and I were neck and neck, with our Naval Reserve guy coming in a strong third. I think he edged me out at 25 yards . . . (darn!)

That's what it takes -- practice, practice and more practice. Practice with a .22 at least -- the ammo is relatively cheap. I need to go to the range far more often myself but it's about an hour's drive away. There are only a handful of ranges left in northern New Jersey, probably the most anti-gun state in the Union.

The 9mm, or your Sig 357 still has yet to be proven as good a "one shot stop" round in ball ammo as the .45 ACP.

There is really no such thing as a "one shot stop" for a combat pistol round.

Each caliber has it's advantages and disadvantages, as has been discussed in depth on this thread.

But to expect consistent and instantaneous stoppages from a pistol round is absurd, as there is no combat pistol cartridge that will do that.

Is a single FMJ round from a .45 better than a 9mm? Of course.

Are two rounds from a 9mm better than a single round from a .45? Perhaps.... depending on shot placement.

And so on....

But personally, I'd lean towards them going with .40 S&W. That cartridge gives you a lot of latitute in bullet weights, and 50% more rounds than the .45 ACP pistols.

6 y. ago when I had 19" arms and was reasonably fit at 250#, with some significant rapid fire practice (motivated by CCP issue after 35 years of target), I learned to crank off (Goldcup) 8 rounds of 185 gr. .45 in about 3.5 seconds hitting paper plates 8/8 at 7-12 feet.

That is not particularly special, just practice.

One must only fire through the recoil recovery cycle as your own arms/body mass absorbing recoil.

.40 S&W with 155 gr. allows for pouring out lead in a proper fitting pistol.

IMHO, anything with over 550'# is too difficult for double/triple taps for nonpistolaros. Winter Afghan wear is thick ply garb. A 450#-550'# in ~180 gr. is good to go. Barnes' X-bullets are great for flesh, if ~light for caliber. 10mm is length critical, <1.25" OAL. with muzzle flash.

I should think that all steel pistols would be better than plastic hybrids. Any flame would melt HKs while a little potential temper loss is survivable in a pinch.

A proper 1911 base with magic titaniumish/NP3ish coatings could make for ueber-HD service pistols.

Our warriors deserve the very best, with training resources to exhaustion. The 9mm is for EUroweenies doing peace keeping.

America is at war for life.

"I don't mean to be a cheapskate or anything, but this means that the Marines are paying $1,727.27 per pistol, although I suppose the administrative costs of the procurement may have been included. Even so, this is the price of a topnotch custom pistol from makers like Wilson and Les Baer. In WWII and before, I'll bet the gov't was paying something like $35 per pistol, at most."

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Regarding your post 14--about 30 years back I looked up the FSN for the 45 pistol and it showed the government price as 57 dollars. I'm pretty sure this dated to 1945 as I don't believe there had been a service pistol purchase since the Big One.

It seems like the M14 price was about $98 and the M16s were around $126 IIRC.

I agree with you completely. I've long been a ".45 fanatic" as the ultimate self-defense weapon, and have often dismissed all the trendy smaller rounds that have been huge fads at one time or another in the last twenty years, but the .357 Sig cartridge is different. I wish more folks would try it out on an actual range before talking it down-it might change their minds, just as mine was changed. .357 Sig is the *real* deal, right up there with .45 ACP in my way of thinking.
Just one other thing I'd like to mention:
I became a ".45 fanatic" because my grandfather was a Pacific War Veteran ('42-'45) in the U.S. Army Air Corps, and he swore by it. But the story of *how* he came to swear by it should be of interest to you, as an USMC vet. Before he died, he told the story often. He was part of a P-38 squadron (5th Air Force, 49th Fighter Group) whose ever-advancing airfields where usually secured by Army regulars, available M.P.'s, and whoever else could be scrounged up to stand a post--including the Aircrews themselves, except for the pilots.
The way this worked, as my grandfather explained it, is that the pilots would advance to an airstrip with their planes, naturally, and that the enlisted members of the aircrews, like himself, would usually be transported to the area in B-25's or something similar for forward deployment. After one such advance, and with the air-strip barely and (of course) crudely constructed, the only men available for perimeter guard duty where those in the Aircrews (not really trained for it, of course) and a *single* squad of Marines. They'd been briefed going in that pockets of Japanese troops where still in the area and prowling around; the "mopping up" process was apparently still in full swing, with both regular Army & Marine units engaged. The Airstrip itself was so important, though, that command had assinged a small squad of Marines to assist in securing it, which, I gather, they took as an insult, being Army Air Corps guys and all--until what happened next.
As he told it, he was back in bivouac, settling in for the night, when he realized that he'd left a small personal bag of "some importance to the war effort" (never knew for certain, but from the impish smile he inevitably flashed when telling this story I've always assumed it was a bag-full of alcholic refreshments he was fetching for) back in the B-25 he'd flown into the site on. He went back to the bomber, which was parked neatly behind the assembled P-38's, and then crawled through a small access door to retrieve his personal bag. He was attempting to exit through the bomb bay when a "Jap" (my grandfather was definitely not "politically correct" in any way, as I'm sure you can imagine) who'd apparently slipped into the aircraft under cover of darkness jumped him from "what seemed like nowhere" and proceeded to try and slit his throat. They flopped and thrashed around for a bit (my grandfather relayed that time just literally stopped for him), and that the "Jap" raised his head up at some point in the struggle--whereupon his head disappeared in a spray of blood and bone, accompanied by the deafening noise of a .45 caliber ACP inside a B-25 bomb bay. My grandfather related that he looked down and saw a member of the United States Marine Corps. standing, calmly, with a 1911 in his hand, a bemused smile on his face. "Why didn't you shoot that Jap?" he said the Marine asked him, genuinely curious, in a professional sense. My grandfather related he could only gasp--in between ringing ears and raging adrenaline--"didn't have one of those," motioning to the Marine's 1911. "Oughta get you one" the Marine told my grandfather, and then he calmly strode off, back on perimeter duty, after saving my grandfather's life. My grandfather carried a .45 pistol (Colt 1911 Army Air Corp issue, I'm sure) on his person from that point on for the duration of the war. And, while he was always proud of his Army Air Corps service and wouldn't have gone any other route, he always had a deep respect for the United States Marine Corps.
As do I. Thank-you for your service, sir.

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