Marines Want Their .45s Back

StrategyPage.com ^ | April 23, 2004

[Cannoneer No. 4]

April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.

The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…

[archy]

SIGARMS is mighty proud of their guns and they price them to reflect that. I have no trigger time on any, and they feel a bit clunky to me compared to a 1911, but better than a Glock.

Try a SIG 210. In my case a SIG 210-4. It was like the year in high school when both motorcycles and a particular girl came my way.

[AnAmericanMother]

Many would be surprised as to how many cops can't shoot very well. It's actually a sad thing to witness at qual shoots.

That is the truth. I worked one summer for the Atlanta PD and used to go to the range with the guys in our precinct. Except for one guy who was also a gun collector and competitive shooter, I could outshoot them all with my mom's little .32 revolver (and it's not a very accurate piece - strictly a nightstand drawer item. Dad bought it for mom when there was an escaped convict sighted in our neighborhood, one of my earliest memories is of my mom pulling it out of her purse to put it away . . . ) I was all of sixteen at the time, although I did have all my little NRA medals from summer camp, it wasn't that I was a good shot, it was that all of them were so bad. They literally couldn't hit the side of a barn with a handful of beans.

[archy]

As you know, I've got a stainless Combat Commander. It's one of those guns that I will never, ever part with until the day I die. And believe me, I'm going to be real choosy about who gets it after that.

L

You can take it with you. And the Vikings were buried with wepons at hand, just in case whatever might face them in the next world might be dealt with with their memory of their familiar tools that had suited and served them well while they were here.

Anyway, can't hurt....

[AnAmericanMother]

Just what everybody needs! One Webley for each hand.

Carpal tunnel syndrome in two easy lessons . . . :-0

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Does it come in .45 ACP?

What do you know about

The CZ 97B?

[AnAmericanMother]

Little bitty towns are nice. My parents live in one now (population 1700) on the GA coast. They love it. My husband and I are stuck in the Atlanta metro area on account of our jobs, but if you know where to live it's not too bad.

I have a little boy (not so little any more - he's 13 and taller than I am) but he IS a handful. He could wreck a junkyard with a rubber hammer, and anybody who thinks there's no such thing as ADHD should come live with him for a week. Fortunately, he appears to be indestructible (knock on wood) . . . NO broken bones, NO stitches (although he should have had them once or twice) . . . but lots of gray hair on his parents' heads . . . :-D

[B4Ranch]

archy isn't mean. When there is a job to be done he would be the kind of man I want in front of me.

[claudiustg]

---Best friend just bought one (Sig P239) last week, and we took it to the range on Wednesday. After helping him run 200 rounds through it, I'd match it against my Kimber Ultra Carry II any day of the week. It is a hot, hot caliber, makes .40 cal. & 9mm look weak by comparison. ---

I cast my vote in favor of Sigs. I've got the P239 in 9mm with night sights and I would say it's just about the perfect carry weapon. Absolutely reliable. For troops the P226 in 357 Sig would be hard to beat. I almost bought one but went with a S&W 686+ for it's greater versatility (bullet weights from 110gr to 180gr plus .38 special).

[Siamese Princess]

That is the truth. I worked one summer for the Atlanta PD and used to go to the range with the guys in our precinct. Except for one guy who was also a gun collector and competitive shooter, I could outshoot them all with my mom's little .32 revolver (and it's not a very accurate piece - strictly a nightstand drawer item. Dad bought it for mom when there was an escaped convict sighted in our neighborhood, one of my earliest memories is of my mom pulling it out of her purse to put it away . . . ) I was all of sixteen at the time, although I did have all my little NRA medals from summer camp, it wasn't that I was a good shot, it was that all of them were so bad. They literally couldn't hit the side of a barn with a handful of beans.

A fellow club member-friend told me that the NYC Police Department would not want a man who likes to shoot in the Department -- they figure that he is likely to be trigger-happy. My gun club allows only the local Police Department to qualify at our range, though more have asked. Last year, we challenged several area police departments to a shooting competition and only one accepted the challenge -- we didn't bother holding the shoot.

[AnAmericanMother]

the NYC Police Department would not want a man who likes to shoot in the Department -- they figure that he is likely to be trigger-happy

Wow that's some specious reasoning there. So instead of an officer who's steady and trained (and likely to identify and hit his targets more accurately), they want somebody who isn't likely to hit what he aims at? Real good thinking guys.

All the good shooters I know are cool and quiet guys, not trigger happy at all.

[cavtrooper21]

Tongue in cheek!!
I know that Archy is competent.
Not mean.
Mean people have prison cells next to Charlie Manson.

[Travis McGee]

I think you're missing the main piece of the military pistol cartridge puzzle. Until the JAG weenies grow balls (never IOW) the military will be restricted to shooting FMJ ball ammo.

If your only choice is non-expanding ball ammo, there is simply no comparison in real world stopping power between 9mm, .357SIG (same FMJ hardball bullet, a little faster) and .45. The .45 is at least "pre-expanded." The .357SIG military hardball rounds are just going to make more "ice pick wounds" like the 9mm.

Now if you're talking cops with modern expanding bullets, frangibles etc, that's a different subject. But not the subject up for discussion here.

[Siamese Princess]

All the good shooters I know are cool and quiet guys, not trigger happy at all.

The brother-in-law of the man who told me this is a retired NYC police officer. The retired cop is also a bad shot.

[Squantos]

Usually these threads have good information..........:o)

Stay safe !

[AnAmericanMother]

Sounds like excuse-making to me! :-D

Seriously, I think that many officers just think of the sidearm as another tool, like a radio or a nightstick. They don't consider that it's a tool that needs a heck of a lot more training than just memorizing a bunch of radio codes, and regular practice to boot. The qual should be just a starting point, not the finish line, but as long as the rank and file have the attitude that barely making the minimum score is "good enough," they'll be lousy shots.

Friend of mine (also a gun collector) is an officer in a local municipal department in a little town outside Atlanta. He told me about an encounter between a fleeing armed robber and a couple of their department's officers . . . they cornered the guy in an office park parking lot, and the shooting commenced. So far as the internal investigation could determine, a total of about fifty rounds were fired (two 9mm mags for each of the cops and however many the bad guy had on hand for his Lorcin, say 10) and NOBODY hit ANYTHING except a nearby dumpster which had two holes in it (maybe they were fresh :-o ). They didn't even hit the bad guy's CAR. Apparently he surrendered out of ennui.

My friend's a good shot. All the gun nuts at my job went down to the local range on our lunch hour a couple times and put a lot of lead through paper. He and I were neck and neck, with our Naval Reserve guy coming in a strong third. I think he edged me out at 25 yards . . . (darn!)

[TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig]

Ditto (Sonar Tech, '86-92,) and of course the fleet sailors werer the last to get their .45s replaced with the M9. Fine by me seeing as we got no training time and I already knew my way around the 1911. Same for the shotguns and M14s.

I responded to my 1st security alert after reporting on board my 1st ship. No training whatsoever. The GM was handing out weapons and tried to hand me an M14. I said "better give me something else." I ended up with a shotgun which suited me just fine.

[USMCBOMBGUY]

You are correct and I do concede to your point, with the one further comment 357 sig is much more accurate and has a higher capacity. It is always better to build a gun around a more accurate bullet then to build a more accurate gun around a less accurate bullet. I love the sig and the 45, one day I hope that I will be able to go to my armory and be able to draw the best weapon for my usage, till then it will either be the 9mm or 45 (with my personal hi cap mags) and as always what comes in the mail........I do like to see everyones opinions, and the reasons they have them, but it will always come down to personal choice and what may be good for someone 6'2" wont always be the same for someone 5'7".

[USMCBOMBGUY]

Are you a tech by chance?

[Squantos]

Retired 26 years Indianhead grad, still working for DOE.........you ?

[SevenDaysInMay]

Hardball BUMP