Marines Want Their .45s Back

StrategyPage.com ^ | April 23, 2004

[Cannoneer No. 4]

April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.

The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…

[bereanway]

Generally hollowpoints tend to hiccup (ftf) a little more. That sharp edge on the nose of the bullet can tend to get hung up on feed ramps etc a little more easily.

I'm a big fan of 45 hardball ammo. Take that 5" government model and set it up for 45 super. Easy to do and instead of 230 gr at 800-850 fps you've got 1000-1100 fps and well over 500 ft-lb energy at the muzzle. That is absolutely a man stopper and you don't have to worry about a bullet that has to expand to be effective. Hollowpoints don't always expand as intended.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

The NATO standard pistol is worthless

[archy]

Thank you, sir. You're a scholar and a gentleman, and there's damn few of us left.

That's not what the two cheerleaders and the KLM flight attendent from Finland called me.

[cavtrooper21]

Military ammo is restricted by the Geneva Convention to BALL ammo.

The 357 is a great knock down because of the style of bullet it carries.

Penetration is great against some unarmored gun-owner you've just roused during a "no knock" "we'll get a search warrant when we find something" 5am wake-up call. Doesn't work as well against an armored thug with a shotgun and a little meth in his system.

The 9mm, or your Sig 357 still has yet to be proven as good a "one shot stop" round in ball ammo as the .45 ACP. All the other fancy "hollow points" and "rapid expansion" rounds are just neat, but sometimes they don't work or fail to feed properly.
Don't dis a bullet and weapon combination that has been around for over 100 years and is STILL the standard by which all combat pistols and ammo are judged. I've seen 9mm and .357 bounce off of car widows and a .45 go right on through. ...and as for your comparing a .22lr to .223, those are rifles cartridges (to me) and one is rim fire and the other a high velocity varmint round. Not even in the same ball park as the comparison I was making about a 9mm and a .357 Sig. My point is simple. The .45 ACP works, works well, has beeen around in combat longer than most other pistol cartriges, and is still on the top of the heap. .357 sig may work well and be the "newest kid on the block" but I'm betting that it goes the way of the 10mm.

[Vision]

The .45 only has about 300ft/lb's of energy. Why don't we stop playing around and go Desert Eagle?

[steplock]

"...and allow female MPs to use the same sidearm as men."

The real story finally makes it out!

It all boils down to 'politically correct' garbage. The left never cared about our superiority - in fact - they hated the fact that WE - Real Americans - ARE superior to most of the world.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

You didn't mention this:

The .45 makes a comeback during the war on terrorism

I missed that one. Must have been working.

[archy]

"Urban Varmit Guns???"

nah, that be the 44 mag auto mag with a 9.5 inch barrel. ;-)

For you, maybe. There are alternatives

[Euro-American Scum]

This article confirms things I've heard over the years about the M9. I've fired the Beretta 92, and I own a Glock 19. And while I wouldn't be prepared to go out on the firing line and take a 9mm in the chest -- or anywhere else for that matter -- I would not want to go to war with one either.

At the same time, I've got six .45s -- 1911s and Glocks -- and when things go bump in the night or TSHTF, I'm reaching for one of them.

[archy]

The .45 only has about 300ft/lb's of energy. Why don't we stop playing around and go Desert Eagle?

See Number 108, above.

[tortoise]

If I were to standardize the military on a round, I'd go with the .357 Sig.

I'd go with the .40, all things considered. Better than the .45 and 9mm, no worse than the .357 SIG. The .40 has already been thoroughly proven (more pistols are sold in this caliber than any other in the US and have for years), and is cheap ammo to manufacture. .40 and .357 SIG have the same mag capacity, which is only slightly less than 9mm.

Given the current cartridge landscape, logistics, and production, .40 would be the logical choice to standardize on if NATO compatibility wasn't an issue.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

ping

[SLB]

This thread seems to have attracted more than a fair share of ballistics experts and other combat systems developers. If enough time passes we will see a recomendation for everything from a .22 LR to a .50 BMG. I have qualified with both the M1911A1 and the M9. Personal preference/opinion - M1911A1. Opinions are just like noses, we all one and some are really big ones.

[VOA]

bump

[rudy45]

Do unsavory people REALLY shoot handguns sideways, or is that just something in the movies? Why do they do so? Thanks.

[Vinnie]

The .45 only has about 300ft/lb's of energy

If you use the 'Taylor Knock Out' formula ( supposed to be a pretty accurate indicator of a non-expanding bullets potential) The .45 is much more powerful than a 9mm.

bullet dia. x weight ( in grains) x velocity (fps) / 7000.

9mm- .355 x 124 x 1200 ( being generous) / 7000 = 7.5

.45- .451 x 230 x 850 / 7000 = 12.5

.357 mag- .357 x 158 x 1350 / 7000 = 10.9

[Jerry_M]

Post # 16 was a joke, right?

Double tapping the "A" zone of an IPSC target doesn't take that much training. If you are putting them in the ceiling, then I suggest you get some.

[Vision]

I know the 45 is stronger then the 9mm. But I don't think it's strong enough. Let's go 50cal.

[cavtrooper21]

Question:

You're in the open, say a parking lot. You've just stepped out of your vehicle and started walking toward an area where a citizen has supposedly reported "suspicious" activity.
Hamid the home grown Islamic ex gang banger steps out from behind a tree and begins to bring his AK type weapon around to bear on you. You have time to observe three things. 1; Hamid is @ 20 meters away, 2; he's got some sort of heavy vest on, and 3; (this is the one that really causes the pucker factor to go up a few degrees) You have no where to go, no cover. you are in the OPEN. The little voice in your head that tell when things are about to get really crappy is screaming and you are going to do what.
Go for the head shot...
...or nail him in the body 3 times. I'm betting that you'll do the same as I did. Go for the body, and I'll bet that the 3 Speer 230 grn "flying ashtrays" I hit him with from my Ruger would do a better job than your 357 Sig.
I KNOW my .45 acp works. Are you willing to bet your ass on some Swiss engineer and an American marketing team.
I'm not.

[Chuckster]

if you're gonna be a bear....