Marines Want Their .45s Back

StrategyPage.com ^ | April 23, 2004

[Cannoneer No. 4]

April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.

The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…

[Drammach]

Do unsavory people REALLY shoot handguns sideways, or is that just something in the movies? Why do they do so? Thanks.

Yeah, some idiots do it.. Most don't know why..
The idea was to use recoil as lateral (sideways) spread of multiple rounds, preferably a full clip..
Preferred target, .... a crowd, or group of people..
There is no accuracy involved, it is basically a "shotgun" effect, and often used from a moving vehicle. ( say, "drive by shooting"..

[cavtrooper21]

That's cute Arch..
Somethin' to tuck under the pillow as a suprise for those "bumps in the night"!!!!!
Bet that would clear an alley like nobodys business.

[Lurker]

As you know, I've got a stainless Combat Commander.

It's one of those guns that I will never, ever part with until the day I die. And believe me, I'm going to be real choosy about who gets it after that.

L

[Vinnie]

Well don't keep us in suspense,...

[Cannoneer No. 4]

ping

[Bosco]

In a similar vein I had a chat with a Korean War vet a few years ago. Seems that their M1 rifles (.30-06) were replaced in the field by M14's (.308) and they were none too happy about it.

He said that even though there were more rounds available in the M14 (20rd mag) they were not as effective as the M1 when the Chinese made their wave attacks. The .308 would penetrate a couple, maybe 3 Chinese, and the .30-06 would easily take out 4.

They did eventually get their rifles back. He also said with the M1 they could shoot the enemy hiding behind trees by shooting right through it.

I'll let someone else supply the obligitory M1 quote from Gen. Patton. Use a nice big font, please.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Somebody's been pulling your leg. The Korean War was over for four years when the M14 7.62 NATO was adopted.

[VOA]

for lurkers/posters wanting to get at a copy of the painting of Pershing warring
with the Moros:
http://www.army.mil/cmh/downloads/USAIA/USAIA.htm

Scroll about halfway down, it's in the left column

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Noses are not the body part I usually hear compared to opinions.

[Jerry_M]

The M-14 was manufactured beginning in 1957. Where was your friend shooting Chinese then?

Additionally, there is not much difference in the terminal ballistics of M2 ball and 7.62x51, so I think someone was pulling your leg.

[cavtrooper21]

He was wearing body armor. Nice 2a stuff stolen from a Dallas PD officer's car about a month before our "meeting" in the apartment complex parking lot.
The "AK" was in fact a SKS with a 30 round mag. Still kills you.
I did hit him, all three times. All three hits were in the torso. None penitrated the armor, however he did have a bruised heart, cracked sturnum, 4 broken ribs and a punctured lung. He was also out cold. He is still in prison, and will be for a long time. Several gang related shootings in Dallas and Irving.
No charges were filed (against either of us... I guess they had enough on him already and I was "justified") and I quit the private security company I was working for that Friday.
I moved back to Kansas 2 months later.

[300winmag]

I KNOW my .45 acp works.

I think that's getting down to the nitty-gritty. What's known, and what's speculation?

Historically, the American military has gone to .45 caliber when it intended the handgun to be a serious killing instrument. European military, and American police departments, intend a handgun to be first a badge of authority, and secondly to be a defensive weapon. 9mm/.357 is adequate for that. Heck, European cops, when armed at all, had .32s, as did many high-ranking military officers. They weren't serious about the killing business.

Only .45 has real stopping power with treaty-mandated FMJ. The smaller calibers need hot loads with expanding bullets to perform adequately. If loaded with FMJ, they'd be a complete joke as an offensive weapon.

The M1911 design is great, but so are some of the newer handguns in .45acp. I love my Glock 21 because it's more comfortable to shoot than the M1911. I wouldn't kick about either weapon, or some of the other .45s out there, but I'd personally pick the Glock over the M1911. YMMV.

Modern designs come in full-size and compact models nowadays. How about the full-size Glock for those who want it, and the compact single-stack (I don't own one, so I forget the model number) for females, pilots, crewmen, etc?.

.45acp is the answer. The only debate is "which platform?"

[Cannoneer No. 4]

The pistol is just the bullet launcher.

[archy]

That's cute Arch..
Somethin' to tuck under the pillow as a suprise for those "bumps in the night"!!!!!
Bet that would clear an alley like nobodys business.

The 40mm buckshot rounds will indeed clear an alley, though the WP round does pretty well at night too.

Unlike the other handguns so far named in the thread, the chopped M79s also have the ability to put the hurt on a light armored vehicle, using a M430 or M433 40mm HEDP round with their shaped charge warhead.

There's also the interesting development of the XM1822 40mm shell adapter for the M79 and M203, which launch 18 rounds of .22 ammo from an M79 shell case...that too should be handy for alley work. And they're reloadable....

[smaagee]

could you remove me from your ping list please?

[ExSoldier]

"Give the marines a 15 round 10mm and they won't want the .45 or the 9mm."

Recoil, report, muzzle flash all work against a fast accurate followup shot. The FBI started issuing the 10mm some years ago and discovered all of these comments to be true. They then scaled back all of them into a new pistol. The result was the .40 S&W which stands for short and weak when compared to the 1911 .45.

[Cuttnhorse]

"It's amazing how a sidearm that served in two world wars, one police action, that little ten-year dust up in Southest Asia and enjoys massive popularity in civilian and law enforcement to this day almost 100 years later, was cast aside in favor of the M9."

So true...I was on Swift Boats in 1966, (in the same op areas as John, Ketchup Boy, Kerry) but had to stay a full tour. We were constantly stopping and boarding small craft, junks and sanpans, and were not issued side arms...we had to pack our AR 15's, often times jumping from our boat to a pitching 65'-junk in heavy seas.

I bought a .45 1911 on the black market and carried it in a shoulder holster...had it for my entire tour and wanted to bring it home but was afraid what would happen if I got caught...me having no future plans for congress, the senate or presidency. I sold the pistol for $45 when I left country...exactly what I originally paid for it. It was a great friend...I could field strip it and reasemble it behind my back in just seconds.

I've got a Sig now, but think I'll buy a Colt Combat Commander, just for the memories.

[USNBandit]

My perspective is a bit dated, but I remember back in the early 90's that the M9 had a finite number of rounds you were allowed to fire the weapon before it was "expended." It seemed at the time that there was a tendency for the slides to separate from the frame during operation after several thousand rounds. Not a big deal when you are only using them for war, but what about training.
I was part of a weapons training program for midshipmen at the Naval Academy and some of the brass started wondering why we weren't training with M9s. The summer training program for the incoming plebes required about 60 pistols. If we had used M9s we would have had to throw the 60 M9s away at the end of the summer. Instead we continued to use the same national match M1911s which had been used for years.
On my successive deployments to the Persian Gulf we did one cruise with 1911s and then got a SIG 9mm I think that is the M11 for the second cruise. The SIG was a really nice pistol, relatively small and easy to operate. Pretty accurate right out of the box, too. Didn't think that much about stopping power, just assumed you would have to shoot your targets twice.
If the Marines want a .45 I say give it too them. They are the only service left that pays attention to marksmanship. Marines can handle the big guns. I hope people have taken note that as the Army has jumped all over the M-4 carbine, that the Marines are still buying long barreled M-16s.

[cavtrooper21]

I agree.

I've got my eye on that nifty little Para Ord. .45 DAO compact 12 round cutie.

If I can get momma to let me free up the cash. She's funny like that. Shotguns and "hunting" (I shmoozed a L1A1 by her by calling it one.) rifles are fine, but handguns (unless she can use it... .45 is too punchy for her) are hard to come by in our house.
..and the little beggar's pricy too, @ 9 bill if I remember correctly.

[Chuckster]

Right you are. Not only that, the ballistics of the .30-'06 and the 7.62 are virtually identical.