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Atheist Calls Pledge Unconstitutional
Yahoo! News ^ | 3/24/04 | Gina Holland - AP

Posted on 03/24/2004 10:33:48 AM PST by NormsRevenge

WASHINGTON -

A California atheist told the Supreme Court Wednesday that the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance are unconstitutional and offensive to people who don't believe there is a God.

Michael Newdow, who challenged the Pledge of Allegiance on behalf of his daughter, said the court has no choice but to keep it out of public schools.

"It's indoctrinating children," he said. "The government is supposed to stay out of religion."

But some justices said they were not sure if the words were intended to unite the country, or express religion.

Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist noted that Congress unanimously added the words "under God" in the pledge in 1954.

"That doesn't sound divisive," he said.

"That's only because no atheists can be elected to office," Newdow responded.

Some in the audience erupted in applause in the courtroom, and were threatened with expulsion by the chief justice.

The subject of Newdow's right to bring the lawsuit had dominated the beginning of arguments in the landmark case to decide if the classroom salute in public schools violates the Constitution's ban on government-established religion.

Terence Cassidy, attorney for a suburban Sacramento school district where Newdow's 9-year-old daughter attends classes, noted to justices that the girl's mother opposed the lawsuit. "The ultimate decision-making authority is with the mother," he said.

The mother, Sandra Banning, is a born-again Christian and supporter of the pledge. "I object to his inclusion of our daughter" in the case, she said earlier Wednesday on ABC's "Good Morning America" show. She said she worries that her daughter will be "the child who is remembered as the little girl who changed the Pledge of Allegiance."

Newdow had sued the school and won, setting up the landmark appeal before a court that has repeatedly barred school-sponsored prayer from classrooms, playing fields and school ceremonies. But justices could dodge the issue altogether if they decide that Newdow needed the mother's consent, because she has primary custody.

Rehnquist said that the issues raised in the case "certainly have nothing to do with domestic relations." And, Justice David H. Souter said that Newdow could argue that his interest in his child "is enough to give him personal standing."

Solicitor General Theodore Olson, the Bush administration lawyer arguing for the school district, said that the mother was concerned that her daughter had been "thrust into the vortex of this constitutional case."

He said the Pledge of Allegiance should be upheld as a "ceremonial, patriotic exercise."

A new poll shows that Americans overwhelmingly support the reference to God. Almost nine in 10 people said the reference to God belongs in the pledge despite constitutional questions about the separation of church and state, according to an Associated Press poll.

Dozens of people camped outside the court on a cold night, bundled in layers and blankets, to be among the first in line to hear the historic case. "I just wanted to have a story to tell my grandkids," said Aron Wolgel, a junior from American University.

More than 100 supporters of the pledge began the day reciting the pledge and emphasizing the words "under God." Some supporters of the California father, outnumbered about four-to-one, shouted over the speeches of pledge proponents. They carried signs with slogans like "Democracy Not Theocracy."

God was not part of the original pledge written in 1892. Congress inserted it in 1954, after lobbying by religious leaders during the Cold War. Since then, it has become a familiar part of life for a generation of students.

Newdow compared the controversy to the issue of segregation in schools, which the Supreme Court took up 50 years ago in Brown v. Board of Education.

"Aren't we a better nation because we got rid of that stuff?" Newdow, a 50-year-old lawyer and doctor arguing his own case at the court, asked before the argument.

The AP poll, conducted by Ipsos-Public Affairs, found college graduates were more likely than those who did not have a college degree to say the phrase "under God" should be removed. Democrats and independents were more likely than Republicans to think the phrase should be taken out.

Justices could dodge the issue altogether. They have been urged to throw out the case, without a ruling on the constitutional issue, because of questions about whether Newdow had custody when he filed the suit and needed the mother's consent.

Absent from the case is one of the court's most conservative members, Justice Antonin Scalia (news - web sites), who bowed out after he criticized the ruling in Newdow's favor during a religious rally last year. Newdow had requested his recusal.

The case is Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow, 02-1624.

___

On the Net:

Supreme Court: http://www.supremecourtus.gov

9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites): http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Front Page News; Government; US: California
KEYWORDS: antheism; antigod; atheist; childcustody; childcustodycase; freedomfromreligion; freedum; god; howdidhegethere; lawsuitabuse; newdow; onenationindivisible; pledge; religion; religiousintolerance; scotus; separation; unconstitutional; undergod
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To: SendShaqtoIraq
So if this is thrown out because of his not having custody, etc, does that mean the 9th circus ruling is no longer valid and school districts in their territory can go back to saying the pledge?

If the SCOTUS tosses this for lack of standing to sue, all of the lower court decisions are vacated and of no further force.

If it is not thrown out, and ends up a tie, what does that mean to the 9th's ruling?

The 9th Circuit's ruling then remains in force, but only in the 9th Circuit. It does not apply to any other Circuits.

61 posted on 03/24/2004 11:48:09 AM PST by Modernman (Chthulu for President! Why Vote for the Lesser Evil?)
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To: NormsRevenge
I have a question --- quite simple really ----

What part of the Constitution guarantees us the "right" to not be offended?

The reason I ask - this "athiest" is supposedly offended by the word "GOD" in the pledge. Maybe I am offended by this Godless punk's behavior. Maybe I am offended by people who deny God publicly. Maybe I am offended at people who mock Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for even those who are so hate-filled.

So, if the words "Under God" in the pledge are Unconstitutional on grounds of them being "offensive", then this idiot Athiest's actions and whining should also be unconstitutional.
62 posted on 03/24/2004 11:48:33 AM PST by TheBattman (leadership = http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html)
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To: TheBattman
You raise an interesting point. Assume that the SCOTUS upholds the 9th Circuit Court and decides to remove the words from the pledge. Can we Christians then file suit to have it restored on the basis that removing the phrase "under God" is offensive to us?
63 posted on 03/24/2004 11:57:32 AM PST by DustyMoment (Repeal CFR NOW!!)
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To: IAmNotAnAnimal
Why is murder illegal, again?

Oh, yeah, now I remember, just had to look at the 10 commandments hanging in SCOTUS.

Interesting...the text of the Commandments does not appear in the courtroom. The "Moses" character in the friezes is holding blank tablets.

Murder was illegal before the Ten Commandments were ever conceived of and its illegal in places where they mean nothing. In India they have many Gods and make graven images, yet murder is illegal.

-Eric

64 posted on 03/24/2004 12:02:05 PM PST by E Rocc (Ich bein un Clinton Hasser)
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To: jtminton
"Derisive laughter" needs to be the only response to these clowns.
65 posted on 03/24/2004 12:03:05 PM PST by MrB
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To: dsmatuska
Is removing "In God We Trust" from our money far behind if the pledge gets changed?
They'd have to remove "Novus Ordo Seclorum" too.

-Eric

66 posted on 03/24/2004 12:04:13 PM PST by E Rocc (Ich bein un Clinton Hasser)
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To: Hodar
Christians were not nearly as tolerant as it is today.

So frickin' what!

When are you living?
And when was the last occurrence of your "evidence" that you can site?

67 posted on 03/24/2004 12:05:15 PM PST by MrB
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To: MrB
This is the same idiot who recently had another case thrown out that wanted to ban invocations at presidential inaugurations.
68 posted on 03/24/2004 12:09:13 PM PST by BlueNgold (Feed the Tree .....)
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To: NormsRevenge
I'm actually pretty surprised the Supreme Court hasn't already tossed this case. He might at least have some argument, albeit a weak one, if the pledge were compulsory. As it stands, the Supremes have already said that a compulsory pledge of allegiance cannot, and does not exist. Thus, if he finds the Pledge, in its current form, to be so utterly offensive and "indoctrinating" as to warrant a case reaching the Supreme Court, he may choose to tell his daughter to remain silent while her class recites it. Another option he has is to tell her to recite the Pledge without the words he finds offensive. So long as she's not disruptive to the class (a requirement for all students at all times) during the recitiation of the Pledge, she can't be disciplined in any way.

This clown is nothing more than an attention-starved fool. He's managed to get some people on board, (a few 9th circut nutjobs) but I have a hard time believing the Supreme Court will acquiesce. In the end, this little girl is probably getting picked on by every kid in school. I can just see every insult the parents of the kids in her school using against him being used against her, and then some. Kids can be cruel, but it's often the case that adults make things far worse. As this case resolves itself and fades into the obscurity of forgotten history, there is but one real consequence: a 9-year old girl who becomes known as the kid who tried to ruin the Pledge of Allegiance. Let's all just hope that she's got some good friends around her, and that the parents with kids in her school have the good sense to make sure their children don't punish her for her father's foolishness.
69 posted on 03/24/2004 12:13:10 PM PST by NJ_gent
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To: NormsRevenge
I am myself an atheist, but I find this whole situation really ridiculous. The words "Under God" have to remain in the Pledge Of Allegiance . Let us not forget, that the greatness of this country is based on Protestant principles.
70 posted on 03/24/2004 12:14:21 PM PST by Bismarck
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To: reasonseeker
"If it isn't broken don't fix it." Precisely why the Pledge should have remained as it originally was, without "under God" in it. Precisely why the National Motto, E Pluribus Unum, should have remained as it was, instead of "In God We Trust." The Founding Fathers could have chosen a religious motto, but they chose a secular one instead. They knew what they were doing. The U.S. went through World War I and II and the Great Depression using the Godless Pledge and "E Pluribus Unum" as the National Motto, and what was the harm? What was "broke" then about them that needed to be "fixed?" The Founders also didn't put "God" on their coins, either, and the idea was thought to be blasphemy by some in those days -- even up until Teddy Roosevelt's time, who didn't like the idea either, thinking it cheapened the idea of God.
Bingo. This also supports the idea that the Founders and Framers believed in Separation.

Newdow arguing his own case bothers me. I hope he wasn't too egotistical or too ignorant to challenge the 1954 law changing the Pledge. That law was clearly based upon religious rather than secular concerns. If the Justices take one look at the debate surrounding it, the decision is at least 6-2 and might even be unanimous. At that point the Pledge reverts to the 1940 version.

If he only challenged the school saying the Pledge and not the 1954 law, they can't and won't review the law. At that point all bets are off. They won't want to throw the Pledge out of the schools, even though Congress can easily change it back.

-Eric

71 posted on 03/24/2004 12:15:43 PM PST by E Rocc (Ich bein un Clinton Hasser)
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To: E Rocc
This also supports the idea that the Founders and Framers believed in Separation.

Then why the references to God in the Declaration of Independence and in the Articles of Confederation? And why did the first Congress bring in chaplains to cast their benediction over the sessions?

72 posted on 03/24/2004 1:21:51 PM PST by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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To: Chummy
Yes, idiots need prayers.
73 posted on 03/24/2004 1:25:21 PM PST by MEGoody (Kerry - isn't that a girl's name? (Conan O'Brian))
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To: reasonseeker
All that you say is true and my point is that I don't think the absence or presence of God in the Pledge Of Allegiance, has created strife between the religious and non-religious. However in the last several years, there has been a concentrated and orchestrated effort by atheists on the left to force secularism on the religious. Be it in their schools, their courts, and elswhere. This is wrong and I believe it is dividing people. These secularists do not do this to better society, they do it because they think the law should say that religious people are wrong and they are right.
74 posted on 03/24/2004 1:39:07 PM PST by miloklancy (The biggest problem with the Democrats is that they are in office.)
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Comment #75 Removed by Moderator

To: NormsRevenge
Some supporters of the California father, outnumbered about four-to-one, shouted over the speeches of pledge proponents

Liberal "freedom of speech": shout down those you disagree with.

Well, I guess I shouldn't be too hard on them... it's not like it's part of the same amendment or anything.

76 posted on 03/24/2004 2:07:26 PM PST by ArmstedFragg
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To: NormsRevenge
Michael Newdow, who challenged the Pledge of Allegiance on behalf of his daughter, said the court has no choice but to keep it out of public schools.

I am more than weary of the fashionable tyranny of the minority in this country. I hope the SC is, too.

77 posted on 03/24/2004 2:46:55 PM PST by Right_in_Virginia
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To: inquest
This also supports the idea that the Founders and Framers believed in Separation.

Then why the references to God in the Declaration of Independence and in the Articles of Confederation

Why none in the Constitution?

-Eric

78 posted on 03/24/2004 5:10:28 PM PST by E Rocc (Ich bein un Clinton Hasser)
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To: A sinner
Hey reasonseeker. There's no reason we should take 'under God' out of the pledge. Most Americans want it in the pledge.

What secular purpose does it serve being there?

The irony is that when the Pledge is recited in public, nine times out of ten the unanimity of the recitation breaks down when some people say "under God" and the others say "indivisible".

-Eric

79 posted on 03/24/2004 5:17:05 PM PST by E Rocc (Ich bein un Clinton Hasser)
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To: E Rocc
So what if they didn't make reference to God at every opportunity. The fact that they did make such references and engaged in such practices is what demonstrated their views on official religious expression.
80 posted on 03/24/2004 5:33:09 PM PST by inquest (The only problem with partisanship is that it leads to bipartisanship)
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