On abortion, a Jewish compromise

Jerusalem Post ^ | 3.14.04 | IRWIN N. GRAULICH

[DonQ]

The Jewish attitude about a fetus is vague. There are some provisions that treat a fetus as a living person, but in the case of a stillbirth or a miscarriage the fetus is regarded as never having lived and therefore a number of religious laws and rituals applicable to a baby who died after drawing a breath are not applicable.

[Just mythoughts]

"The Jewish attitude about a fetus is vague."


Would you please explain what this means. I think the Torah is very clear.

[reg45]

History's Great Mass Murderer's

Hitler: 10 million

Stalin: 30 million

Mao: 40 million

Blackmun: 45 million - and counting!!!

[AMDG&BVMH]

good post

[NHResident]

Reg45 has it right. The Mr. Graulich is suggesting the Torah holds that the only valid response for an individual who objects to murder is to become a murderer oneself. Somehow, I find that conclusion more than a little suspect. Mr. Graulich leaves the impression of being more of a sophist than a Talmudic scholar.

[ml/nj]

Exodus 21:22 means that if the fetus dies, there should be only monetary liability; but if the woman dies, it is capital murder.

Both you and the author of the JPost piece are being disingenuous. He makes up his own Biblical quote and you make up your own interpretation.

The Talmudic interpretation, which clearly flies in the face of the text or the Torah, is that everything referred to in Ex 21:22, including the death of the mother is to be salved with financial compensation.

Of course, all of this is besides the point. The issue is whether abortion is permissible or not; not what the punishment should be after the fact.

Nachum Ansel discusses abortion in The Jewish Encyclopedia of Moral and Ethical Issues. You should read this. The bottom line is that abortion is permissible only to save the life of the mother. Ansel references Mishna Ohalot 7:6, which I've read but remember thinking it unclear.

What is not unclear is that Rebecca had the most difficult pregnancy in the Bible. She had twins (habanim=boys) struggling in her womb. The twins continued this struggle throughout their lives, not even interrupting it for their birth. Clearly Jacob and Esau's lives began before their birth. During one of those early womb struggles Rebecca went to inquire of G-d. G-d did not give Rebecca a choice.

ML/NJ

[AMDG&BVMH]

"The bottom line is that abortion is permissible only to save the life of the mother"

Thanks for the clarification.

[WKB]

The Bible has a lot to say about the shedding of innocent blood and none of it good. What blood could be more innocent than that of an unborn totally helpless innocent baby.

I believe any Judge,Democrat Liberal or whatever who
is in favor of abortion should be forced to witness
the Partial Birth Abortion of their one and only grandchild.

[RonHolzwarth]

re: "The Bible has a lot to say about the shedding of innocent blood and none of it good. What blood could be more innocent than that of an unborn totally helpless innocent baby."


I guess the holey koran is different, huh?

[thoughtomator]

I'm not being disingenuous... you repeated the same thing I said about it.

[Honestfreedom]

It is good to finally see that Israel is following Torah for guidance on an issue, unlike capital punishment, where Jewish law seems to be ignored. <<

What evidence is there that Israeli is following the Torah position? Israel largely allows abortion on demand. People have to apply for an abortion but it is granted in over 95% of cases. There is no reason to say that Israel is following the Torah on abortion.

[ml/nj]

I'm not being disingenuous... you repeated the same thing I said about it.

You said:

Exodus 21:22 means that if the fetus dies, there should be only monetary liability; but if the woman dies, it is capital murder.

from which I inferred that you thought there was a stronger penalty for killing the mother than the baby, and so killing the baby was not as bad as killing the mother. I think Jewish law views such killing equally.

ML/NJ

[thoughtomator]

There was... in the specific circumstances of Exodus. In Leviticus, the same line is repeated, without the reference to the pregnant woman. In Exodus, there is a stronger penalty for killing the woman than killing the fetus; in Leviticus no mention of this is made, although the same law absent that provision is clearly repeated. The context of the passage is also clear that in the Exodus case, the miscarriage is accidental, not purposely induced like abortion. It being accidental, the Exodus passage cannot possibly refer to deliberately causing a miscarriage.

[af_vet_1981]

The bottom line is that abortion is permissible only to save the life of the mother.

Yep, everything else is sin.

[nmh]

The Torah, or specific parts of the Bible that make up the "Torah: are clear than abortion is WRONG. Homosexuality is wrong etc.. but how many Jews actually read the Torah with comprehension? Hardly any otherwise they wouldn't be voting or legally defending abortion or homosexuality.

Ever look at the last names of those defending this evil? You should. Look at who leads the charges on the A.C.L.U. cases against others like the Salvation Army. Most are atheists.

While they don't have a monopoly on endorsing evil, they certainly do their fair share. This is not "Jew bashing" but I know some may insist it is because ANY criticism or facts that disagree with their imaginary world are labeled such. What's worse is some "Christians" practically worship Jews since at one time they WERE the "chosen people" before Christ came and died for all of us. Belief is required of Jews as well as Gentiles for eternal life in the right place.

[nmh]

There is nothing "vague" about where the Torah stands on abortion. Hair splitting here is ridiculous, Herr Clintone.

[Aegedius]

While ambiguity exists on the general question of abortion, Jewish law appears to be absolute on the question of partial birth abortion. From "The Fetus and Fertility in Jewish Law", edited by Rabbi Walter Jacob and Moshe Zerner, Rodef Shalom Press, Pittsburgh (1995)... "The second source on the nature of the fetus is found in the Mishnah, which stated that it is permissible to kill a fetus if a woman's life is endangered by it during the process of giving birth. However, if a greater part of the fetus had emerged, or if the head had emerged, then the fetus posesses the status of a person and can not be dismembered, as one may not take one life in order to save another (M. Ohalot 7.6)"

[dogbyte12]

I do think the author has a point though on the rhetoric. If you genuinely believed there was zero moral difference between an abortionist performing 20 abortions, and a person killing 20 toddlers at a day care center, you wouldn't just picket the day care center, you would act. The fact that we don't act in the same manner leads me to believe that deep down we know that it is evil, but not the same evil.

It is the difference between going 50 mph through a school zone, and 150. Both acts are absolutely heinous and should be stopped, however, we treat them a bit differently in our minds. I apologize for this analogy that in no way addresses the moral seriousness of this issue, but I think it is apt.

I am opposed to abortion, yet to be intellectually honest, if there were two abortions being performed and one 5 year old about to be killed and I could only get to one place on time to prevent it, I know in my heart that I would save the 5 year old.

[WKB]

I guess the holey koran is different, huh?



Have no idea never read it don't intend to

[nmh]

Isn't Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun, Jewish?

Look at his legacy of evil:

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/blackmun/