Krauthammer: "Gibson's Blood Libel"

Washington Post ^ | Mar. 5, 04 | Charles Krauthammer

[churchillbuff]

Gibson's Blood Libel

By Charles Krauthammer Friday, March 5, 2004; Page A23

Every people has its story. Every people has the right to its story. And every people has a responsibility for its story. ...[snip]

Christians have their story too: the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Why is this story different from other stories? Because it is not a family affair of coreligionists. If it were, few people outside the circle of believers would be concerned about it. This particular story involves other people. With the notable exception of a few Romans, these people are Jews. And in the story, they come off rather badly.

Because of that peculiarity, the crucifixion is not just a story; it is a story with its own story -- a history of centuries of relentless, and at times savage, persecution of Jews in Christian lands. This history is what moved Vatican II, in a noble act of theological reflection, to decree in 1965 that the Passion of Christ should henceforth be understood with great care so as to unteach the lesson that had been taught for almost two millennia: that the Jews were Christ killers.

[ConservativeMan55]

bump!

[af_vet_1981]

I must also tell you that I have seen no outrage by those who hold claim of the Torah, and the abominations that occur daily in this Christian nation. Why no outrage about removal of the TEN COMMANDMENTS?\ Why no outrage about giving sodomy a civil right? Why no outrage about a court demanding the perversion of the institution of Marriage. Why no outrage about law breaking by that city by the bay.

None of these example you list approach the persecution and genocide of the Jewish people in scope or magnitute of evil although I am against all of them.

No all I hear is outrage about a man, his movie using his Father as a scapegoat. What sin has Mel's father committed and where is it WRITTEN?

Now you are on record asserting that Hutton Gibson's published positions are not sinful. I'll let you sleep on that.

• O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of the LORD.
• Then Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, arose and warred against Israel, and sent and called Balaam the son of Beor to curse you:
• But I would not hearken unto Balaam; therefore he blessed you still: so I delivered you out of his hand.
• Israel was holiness unto the LORD, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.
• And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
• And Balak's anger was kindled against Balaam, and he smote his hands together: and Balak said unto Balaam, I called thee to curse mine enemies, and, behold, thou hast altogether blessed them these three times.

[af_vet_1981]

Esau was Jacob's twin. The older and the one by tradition to receive the "blessing and the birthright". That event cause a great jealousy among the brothers. Even in the womb our father hated Esau and loved Jacob and it is written. Now Esau being the brother of Jacob a child of Abraham did not disappear off the face of this earth. Yet I hear none claim heritage from him, just wondered WHY?

I assume you are taking Esau's case pro bono.

[Qwinn]

No, I wrote that I would be tempted toward anti-Semitism WERE IT NOT for Jews like Rabbi Lapin, Dennis Prager, Medved, and a good number of Jewish posters on this board who have acted with some sanity regarding this movie. It is because of them that the Jewish reaction to this movie has not been monolithic to the point that they would actually -merit- collective guilt. However, they -do- exist (albeit a minority), and that is why I am NOT tempted to be anti-Semitic, and I am grateful to them for it. If you read my original phrasing, I make that very plain.

Look - do me a favor. Listen very closely to the next things I'm going to say - because I want to see if you're even capable of perceiving what it is you're doing.

- Jews are saying that this movie will stir up violence against Jews, and as such are laying collective guilt on all Christians for actions that have never - EVER - happened in the United States. Jews have never been lynched in the U.S. Blacks have. Even Catholics have. But not Jews. So, this massive collective guilt trip is laid, continously for an entire year, on American Christians as Jew haters on absolutely no evidence that can relate to anyone living in this country.

- At the same time, a MAJORITY of Jews, EVEN IN CONSERVATIVE CIRCLES, are ranting that Christians are attempting to lay collective guilt on Jews, on zero evidence.

So, on the one hand, American Christians are accused of being collective bigots on absolutely no evidence - NOT EVEN HISTORICAL EVIDENCE. On the other hand, Jews are NOW, at present, at this very moment in time, with names and faces and everything, laying collective guilt on Christians.

What concerns you? Is the fact that Christians are being condemned as bigots on no evidence troubling you even slightly? Nope. What concerns you is that I am capable of perceiving MASSIVE bigotry on the part of MANY Jews that is happening RIGHT NOW.

You are making up your fears that American Christians will hold Jews accountable for historical sins out of thin air, and at the same time claiming that they are holding historical sins against -you-.

You are guilty of exactly what you are accusing Christians of.

It amazes me that you are 100%, completely blind to this. I saw you responding to posters with anger and loathing long before I posted on this thread. You're acting as if you were all nice and happy and getting along just great with everyone till I came along and started being a "Jew-hater". Bull. Even now, you are smearing Free Republic as an anti-Semitic hell hole, which I have seen -extremely- little evidence of. What I have seen here is -overwhelming- support of Israel and Jews in general (and I have always been one of those incredibly strong supporters, and that hasn't changed). And yet you claim that your Jewish friends would be dismayed at what they see on this board? If that's the case, then they're just as blind and determined to be bigots as you are.

Qwinn

[af_vet_1981]

Even now, you are smearing Free Republic as an anti-Semitic hell hole, which I have seen -extremely- little evidence of.

That is one more lie to add to the others in your comments. Fortunately your comments are preserved for all to read. I ask you to stay on topic and not personally attack me. You are responsible for your comments. Agnosticism does not relieve you of basic obligations of civility.

[Just mythoughts]

assume you are taking Esau's case pro bono

YOu think after what our Heavenly Father says about Esau I would go against Him.

No I think it is time to put all that was promised right out there in plain sight. We don't get to pick and choose, snip and clip what parts we want to use.

Christ made the OLD part of the NEW, they are a continuation and no snip and clip.


And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp two edge sword: and His countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Christ his WORD from the beginning is a two edged sword cuts both ways LEFT and RIGHT.

[Qwinn]

Oh, I lied?

af_vet_1981:

"Most Jews who participate in the Jewish communities would be shocked at what goes on here and/or it would reinforce their stereotyped perceptions of conservatives, RightWingChristians, whatever label they might use to describe the various folks (many of whom are very good people and inspiring) who read and post on FR."

If that isn't calling Free Republic an anti-Semitic hell hole, what is it? Oh, sure - you attest that there are good people here. And I have attested that there have been good Jews here. However, you claim that I'm a bigot, and you aren't. How's -that- work?

Qwinn

[af_vet_1981]

YOu think after what our Heavenly Father says about Esau I would go against Him.

I would hope not. After this movie came out I've noticed some self-identified Christians questioning or threatening to withdraw their support of Israel over it. I know there are Christian groups that replace Israel (in their minds and hearts). I wasn't sure where you wanted to go with Esau and his descendants. What G-d said is sufficient for me. Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. Every genuine Christian should be able to say this.

[Just mythoughts]

No you missed what I asked. If Jacob today is modern day Israel then who is their brother Esau.

[af_vet_1981]

Oh, I lied? af_vet_1981: "Most Jews who participate in the Jewish communities would be shocked at what goes on here and/or it would reinforce their stereotyped perceptions of conservatives, RightWingChristians, whatever label they might use to describe the various folks (many of whom are very good people and inspiring) who read and post on FR." If that isn't calling Free Republic an anti-Semitic hell hole, what is it? Oh, sure - you attest that there are good people here. And I have attested that there have been good Jews here. However, you claim that I'm a bigot, and you aren't. How's -that- work? Qwinn

Yes Qwinn. You lied.

"Most Jews who participate in the Jewish communities would be shocked at what goes on here and/or it would reinforce their stereotyped perceptions of conservatives, RightWingChristians, whatever label they might use to describe the various folks (many of whom are very good people and inspiring) who read and post on FR."

This is absolutely true.

The vulgar expression that you wrote is not true. You tried to put vulgar words in my mouth to personally attack and defame me. It is the movie that has enraged you and you are losing control of your reason and emotions.

There are Antisemites who try to hang out here. Jim and the staff tend to zot them rather quickly. They may hang out longer if they hide behind code words. Usually they are exposed sooner or later. The overt ones don't last long. There are genuine Christians on FR, as well as good ethical and moral conservatives of other persuasions. They don't put up with Antisemitism.

[Just mythoughts]

I will clarify further.

It is written that the 2 Houses of Israel will not be rejoined until the second advent of Christ. So we have the kingdom of Judah known.

Now Esau is said to be a nation serving his brother.

This being the case we should be able to identify who modern day Esau is and who the 10 tribes are based upon status of what we are told would be. Correct?

[af_vet_1981]

No you missed what I asked. If Jacob today is modern day Israel then who is their brother Esau.

We know Esau married Canaanite women. We know he founded Edom. We know Edom was in what we now call southern Jordan. We know his descendants made war on the children of Israel. The Edomites have disappeared and their language is forgotten. Whether any genetic descendants remain is a secret thing.

[Qwinn]

No - again, it is not the movie that enraged me. It is the attacks on the movie that enrage me, because they are so patently false. If I had seen the movie without having read Maureen Dowd's column (who isn't Jewish, btw, and I've attacked her just as much as any Jew), or Andy Rooney's column (who isn't Jewish either), or Charles Krauthammer's (who -is- Jewish, but on the other hand, he -isn't- a secularist Leftist), or Steve Malzberg (also Jewish, also -not- a secularist Leftist) - well, then, who could I be mad at?

Seriously. Don't pretend you don't know what I'm mad about. It has nothing to do with the movie itself, or any attempt on it's part to depict Jews in an unfavorable light. Quite the opposite. My anger is because it -didn't- depict Jews in a horrific light, after I've seen Gibson and Christians who defended the movie assaulted for over a year with claims that it -did-.

It's obvious that it's the reviews that have angered me, af_vet_1981, not the movie itself. But you can't stop blaming it on the movie, can you? It -has- to be Gibson's fault, because you simply refuse to admit any personal responsibility, or concede that Krauthammer has any responsibility for his diatribes and outright misrepresentations. Nope. Must be all Mel's fault. Must be the movie's fault. Can't be the reviewer's fault. Cause Jews -can't- be anti-Christian, only Christians can be anti-Semites.

THAT is the biggest lie in our conversation, af_vet. Your claim that I lied is because I repeated what you said in a more "vulgar" way (gee - "hell hole" is an extreme vulgarity now apparently). I didn't change the meaning of what you said, however. My "lie" was a paraphrase. The same can't be said of your lie, that it is the movie that has enraged me. That's not a paraphrase, that's an active distortion.

You keep trying to misrepresent my anger as being a result of the -movie-, when anyone who can read can see that my anger is at Dowd, at Rooney, at Krauthammer, at Malzberg, and at you - for precisely the kind of demonization of Christians that Krauthammer falsely claims Gibson did to Jews.

So, in your book, it's perfectly okay for Krauthammer to falsely demonize Christians, but not okay for me to express anger at Jews for that demonization. No, the blame goes to Gibson, and the movie.

Which just shows that you simply have no idea when to quit, and you are part of the problem.

Qwinn

[4.1O dana super trac pak]

For later.

[af_vet_1981]

It's obvious that it's the reviews that have angered me, af_vet_1981, not the movie itself. But you can't stop blaming it on the movie, can you? It -has- to be Gibson's fault,

No. I think it is your fault. You saw the movie. You acted out your hatred and anger online for all to read. You just couldn't help yourself. The movie triggered that in you Qwinn.

THAT is the biggest lie in our conversation, af_vet. Your claim that I lied is because I repeated what you said in a more "vulgar" way (gee - "hell hole" is an extreme vulgarity now apparently). I didn't change the meaning of what you said, however. My "lie" was a paraphrase. The same can't be said of your lie, that it is the movie that has enraged me. That's not a paraphrase, that's an active distortion.

No Qwinn. You lied. Your lie was both of semantics and substance. You cannot use FR as a shield for your own comments. You are responsible for them. You cannot reword my comments. They stand as I wrote them. You were attempting to do that, possibly after your reread your own rhetoric. You are simply inflamed by this movie and the criticism of it.

You were the target audience some hoped to reach with this movie for evangelism.

[Just mythoughts]

NO might be "hidden" but not secret.

Looks like you need to read ALL those promises given and to whom they were given GOOD and BAD! and no snip and clip.

[af_vet_1981]

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Balaam is about Antisemitism?

Yep, those who try to curse Jacob and his descendants with religious sanction.

Balaam, so written after the Greek. In Hebrew his name is Bil'am.

Ken, bevrit neamar bil'am.

Since you are claiming to know who Edom is and where ten lost tribes are (I don't think they are lost tribes; a remnant from the tribes returned to the land of Israel), say on. Present your doctrine in its entirety.

[Just mythoughts]

So then you have not read?

My doctrine..... Song of Moses..

Christ said I have foretold you ALL things......

[Outraged]

Hitler's crazed mind fueled the Holocaust. The enmity between Christians and Jews for centuries was no different in kind from what you find today between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland or Jews and Arabs in Israel. Genocide crosses a line--and there is plenty of evidence Hitler was inspired by Stalin, not by Christianity.Yet more and more you find Jewish intellectuals who blatantly charge Christianity itself with the Holocaust, making a linkage. This in turn has inspired more and more hate emanating from the Jewish intellectual community. The linkage is now received opinion--and it will create the very hostile reaction it fears. If this high profile anti-Christianity keeps up, inevitably it will result in as much hostility against Jews here in America as there is already in Europe. And it will have been self-created. It's just plain nuts. Krauthammer has been irresponsible.

Cogent, succinct and articulate...Well put ultima.

[af_vet_1981]

My doctrine..... Song of Moses..

Song of Moses

Are you Ken or associated with his organization ?