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To: ejdrapes
One more note about the whole Christian-Moslem aspect of this controversy:

We are all so quick to find fault with Islam. We make fun of the "religion of peace" (I do too, I have at least 50 posts with my name on it in FR that say exactly those words), and we all jeer when they ignore their own terrorists and we all are very quick to point out that in the Islamic world, you're either a Muslim or you're a piece of garbage (which is sadly and sickeningly true).

But we're not so quick to jump on any of those tendencies in Christianity. You say they don't exist. Bullsh1t. They exist. They are there. And it is precisely on this question of The Jews where they rear their ugly heads.

The Jews are condemned --- historically and by some Christians today --- for not converting. How is that condemnation not like the garbage-treatment that non-Muslims get in the Islamic world? It might be quantitively less fierce (Christian civilization being so much more civilized than Islamic barbarism) but it is qualitively the exact same thing.

Again, here's an opportunity for us to show how we are NOT like Islamic fanatics. The opportunity is this: condemn the statement "the Jews killed Jesus". Condemn it because it's stupid. Condemn it because it detracts from the true meaning of the cross. Condemn it because it damages the soul of those who believe it. And condemn it because it shows the Islamic world the correct way for people in a religion to react to extremists in their midst.
43 posted on 02/27/2004 4:18:49 AM PST by samtheman
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To: samtheman
Please find me a single thread where you have seen someone make an anti-semitic statement and it has -not- been thoroughly condemned.

Qwinn
47 posted on 02/27/2004 4:22:21 AM PST by Qwinn
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To: samtheman
The opportunity is this: condemn the statement "the Jews killed Jesus". Condemn it because it's stupid.

do you know why you don't hear ME condemning the statement? because I DON"T KNOW ANYONE THAT BELIEVES THAT THE JEWS SHOULD BE BLAMED FOR KILLING JESUS. honestly. i grew up in a largely catholic community attended catholic schools, as do my children today, and NO ONE BELIEVES that. our belief, and that of the Church is that Christ died for all of us. so you are asking me to condemn something that is too ridiculous to even contemplate.

i had this discussion, with respect to anti-semitism and this movie with a good friend and Jewish colleague yesterday. and i think he thinks the same way. one thing you need to understand is that people are coming at this from different directions. i understand that Jews are going to see all of this differently than i, because we all see things through the prism of our own experience. i ask you not to judge me, or other Christians, for not making this statement you seek from us. NOT because we don't believe it, but because in our realm of experience it doesn't seem NECESSARY. do you understand what i am trying to say?

58 posted on 02/27/2004 4:29:17 AM PST by xsmommy
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To: samtheman
But we're not so quick to jump on any of those tendencies in Christianity. You say they don't exist. Bullsh1t. They exist. They are there.

And how significant are they when enemies have to scrape the walls to find them? Is it not self-evident to you the people you are refering to are such a vanishingly small minority that you insult the majority of us by giving credence to such punctilious nonsense?

63 posted on 02/27/2004 4:32:24 AM PST by Woahhs
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To: samtheman
Did you hear Ann Grahm Lotz speak on Fox news on Ash Wednesday? She spoke of Chirstians' respect and honor for the Jews. I just point her out because I know her name, but I've seen several such comments in the media.

The fact is, the Passion is a Jewish story. It can't be told accurately with Scandinavian actors. And it's a story that Christians must have a right to retell in a free society. It's central to our faith. If the Passion is anti-Semitic, then so is our Bible, and so is our God. This is the same God who has said that if we bless the Jews we will be blessed, and if we curse the Jews we sill be cursed. This is the same God who chose the Jews to receive the law, and to father the tribe of Judah, Christ's own tribe.


Understand that when Christans tell the story, they see it in Biblical context. Jesus decided to allow himself to be sacrificed for our sins. He replaced the imperfect sacrificial system whereby blood sacrifices were offered for one's sins. The sacrifice had to be without blemish, like Christ. And, by the way, a perfect sacrifice required that it be offered by a priest from the tribe of Levi. Nothing happened on Good Friday that Jesus didn't allow.
104 posted on 02/27/2004 5:00:55 AM PST by keats5 (And don't you dare correct my spelling!)
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To: samtheman
"The Jews are condemned --- historically and by some Christians today --- for not converting."

this doesn't square with the rest of your post (which i agree with btw).

171 posted on 02/27/2004 5:38:32 AM PST by sauropod (I intend to have Red Kerry choke on his past.)
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To: samtheman
Again, here's an opportunity for us to show how we are NOT like Islamic fanatics. The opportunity is this: condemn the statement "the Jews killed Jesus". Condemn it because it's stupid. Condemn it because it detracts from the true meaning of the cross. Condemn it because it damages the soul of those who believe it. And condemn it because it shows the Islamic world the correct way for people in a religion to react to extremists in their midst.

Best comment in this thread, so far as I'm concerned.

281 posted on 02/27/2004 6:48:35 AM PST by BlazingArizona
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To: samtheman
...condemn the statement "the Jews killed Jesus"

Anyone who claims to be a Christian and doesn't know that he/she is as guilty of the death of Christ as anyone else needs to study the inspired word and pray for a better understanding of it.

290 posted on 02/27/2004 6:59:05 AM PST by LucyJo
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To: samtheman
The Jews are condemned --- historically and by some Christians today --- for not converting

Can't agree with you there. IMO, some Christians today fault them for attacking and bashing Christians. Hollywood and the media have been bashing the basic tenets of the Ten Commandments and demonizing nuns and priest at every turn. With partial birth abortion, condoms, same sex marriage its gotten quite sickening. The 'Passion...' is clearing the air and 'checking' the NYT, Disney etc.

336 posted on 02/27/2004 8:20:48 AM PST by duckln
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To: samtheman
Before you start dumping on the Christians, and throw around the anti-Semitic label, you must stop and reflect on the status of Jews, Moslems, and Christians on this planet.

First, I must recognize the fact that Jews were killed by the Nazis simply because of their religion. Since that time, you can’t hardly find a case anywhere in the world where Jews were selectively killed because of their religion.

Second, there is Palestinian Moslem Arab hostility to ISRAEL, the Jewish state. This hostility has created cycle of violence and terrorism that has both political and religious roots. During the past fifty years, the Christians were solidly behind the Jewish state and the Jewish people with moral, financial, diplomatic, and military supports. For a Jew to be so arrogant to blame the Christian people for anti-Semitism in today’s world, it is simply the heights of hysteria and irresponsibility.

Third, Moslems throughout their history have targeted and killed Christians, simply for religion reason. Historically, there were cases where Christians under the crusaders leadership counter-attacked the Moslems, but that was several hundred years ago. However, in recent history (past fifty years) there has never been Christians killing Moslems or Jews, just for their religion. Granted, there was hostility in Bosnia, and Kosovo between Moslems, and Christians, but the Christians of the West sided with the Moslems.

Now back to the paranoia of some of the Jewish people regarding the Passion of the Christ; the label of anti-Semitism is dispensed so freely and undeservingly to otherwise good Christian people, who for some reason or another "some" Jewish fanatics don't like their attitude. If you can reflect on how many times you have heard the label of anti-Semitism thrown against some American or European people, and show me the number of Jews killed by these Christian people. The facts are ZERO killing. If Pat Buchanan criticized Israel policies, he is labeled Anti-Semitic. Pat, or Mel Gibson, or even Mel Gibson's father, as far as I know did not kill one single Jew, and fully supports Israel rights.

In today paper: 48 Christian people were killed in Nigeria as they ran to seek refuge in their church by militant Moslems. In the past ten years there was, and still is a systematic holocaust of Christians by Moslems in the Sudan. Millions have been killed. Millions! How do we compare the systematic killing of Christians by the fanatic Moslems throughout the world, with killing of Jews anywhere around the world – recently? I have to submit that the cases where Jews are killed because they are Jews are practically non-existing any more, while the cases of Christians slaughtering are going on every day; hundreds in some countries, thousands in other countries, and MILLIONS in the Sudan.

Christians and Jews should thank God for having the commonsense to live peacefully together. Jews must abandon the hysteria of Anti-Semitism, and work together with the Christians to highlight the agony of the Christian minorities throughout the world under the barbaric Moslem oppressions. Christians and Jews are the target of Moslem terrorism, and should never lose focus.

339 posted on 02/27/2004 8:24:16 AM PST by philosofy123
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To: samtheman
i guess the "religion of peace" chickens have come home--anyone who's tossed that phrase around lost their right to harangue one faith about it's having accused another

i agree with hitchens' artistic judgment of 'the passion', but neither christianity nor islam, as religions, are responsible for anti-semitism any more than is judaism for christ's death
401 posted on 02/27/2004 7:23:30 PM PST by dwills
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