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To: gobucks
fwiw, I discern God is currently viewing our 'culture' in a very, very negative light.

Isn't that presumptive? What ills of modern day are so worse than those faced in the depression? Or WW1? People have been saying "It was better in the Old Days" since day one - that doesn't make it true.

P.S. Please don't take this as a personal attack; rather, I want to understand why certrain people (like you) feel that G-d is angry with us.

36 posted on 02/10/2004 10:21:36 AM PST by Shryke
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To: Shryke
Hey, personal attacks I can handle. (Indifference, however, is much harder to endure ;))

Honestly, 'reasoned' debates over God are rarely very useful. Too many folks disagree. Words are symbols that have to undergo translations. Spiritual code books are stifling.

I know that my own 'classical liberal critical thinking skeptical' training served me very well for functional purposes, career success, and society's recognition of a job well done. It also led me to the logical rejection of how 'God' was being sold to me. I won't dull you with the resultant mundane impact on my personal situation, but it's a common enough story I'm not proud to be part of.

"certrain people (like you)..."

I can't really vouch for how others perceive God's attitude toward us. My own is deeply colored by lots of O.T. reading that began in earnest in May 2001. On the whole, the O.T. reveals to me a God that is deeply jealous toward us, for us (at first, the jews of course).

Over the last many decades, American society has dramatically become a zoloft-loving, navel gazing mess. Hardships we've always had. But, these days, the American spirit is one shot through with lies for the most part, ubiquitous lies and above all, lies about how we conduct ourselves sexually.

There is this huge school of thought being sold out there that folks who married in the 1910's are no different than the folks today. I have talked to countless baby boomers, and countless numbers of their predecessors. My parents come from the boom generation....and I don't like them much, for even now, they struggle and struggle with navel gazing nonsense. Too many of their peers are like them, and for too long, I followed their example.

The older the American I meet, the more I generally like them. I have a few very old relatives, who in their day were considered the liberals. They sound like rabid right wingers relatively. And their attitudes are much less 'survivor' in outlook - more like 'server'.

I'm rambling. Bottom line, I don't 'feel' God is angry. I discern, based on my understanding of the ot and nt, and my own 'unreasonable' relationship with Him that his desire to protect us is diminishing.

Not meaning to sound gloomy or doomy. But, the ot is pretty clear regarding God's motives in how he uses the enemies of his people to 'turn their hearts'. The nt is pretty clear about how within my own circle I'm expected to conduct myself.

In truth, abortion, here and elsewhere, has gained its ground because of an unwillingness to face God's expectations of us. Here I think I'm going to add what I really think to this topic. I think the majority of men are largely boys trapped inside adult male bodies.

I think feminism is just like abortion in this aspect. Mold that naturally grows in the absence of manly living. We men are solely to blame for the rise in abortion and feminism. For our women are not being properly loved as a man should love a woman. And that is because we men are not properly loving our God. Generally speaking of course. Here in Freeperland, I sense an enormous number of folks are getting it right. (Whew, that was a close one!!)

And so, given the grace of freewill, He allows the mold to grow, and gives us the experience of the dirt. I believe the word at play for this is 'mercy'.

So, how is that for a stab at helping you understand my perspective?
43 posted on 02/10/2004 11:21:19 AM PST by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/laocoon)
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To: Shryke
Are these not in YOUR Holy Book too?
Deuteronomy 19:8-10
 8.  If the LORD your God enlarges your territory, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, and gives you the whole land he promised them,
 9.  because you carefully follow all these laws I command you today--to love the LORD your God and to walk always in his ways--then you are to set aside three more cities.
 10.  Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land, which the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance, and so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed.
 
Deuteronomy 19:13
   Show him no pity. You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you.
 
Deuteronomy 21:9
   So you will purge from yourselves the guilt of shedding innocent blood, since you have done what is right in the eyes of the LORD.
 
1 Kings 2:31-33
 31.  Then the king commanded Benaiah, "Do as he says. Strike him down and bury him, and so clear me and my father's house of the guilt of the innocent blood that Joab shed.
 32.  The LORD will repay him for the blood he shed, because without the knowledge of my father David he attacked two men and killed them with the sword. Both of them--Abner son of Ner, commander of Israel's army, and Amasa son of Jether, commander of Judah's army--were better men and more upright than he.
 33.  May the guilt of their blood rest on the head of Joab and his descendants forever. But on David and his descendants, his house and his throne, may there be the LORD's peace forever."  (Dang!! Isn't something like this what has gotten Mel Gibson in trouble with some of today's Jews??) [see below]
 
2 Kings 21:16
   Moreover, Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end--besides the sin that he had caused Judah to commit, so that they did evil in the eyes of the LORD.
 
2 Kings 24:3-4
 3.  Surely these things happened to Judah according to the LORD's command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done,
 4.  including the shedding of innocent blood.  For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive.
 
Psalms 106:38
   They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.
 
Proverbs 6:16-19
 16.  There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
 17.  haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
 18.  a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
 19.  a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
 
Isaiah 59:7
   Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are evil thoughts; ruin and destruction mark their ways.
 
Jeremiah 7:5-7
 5.  If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly,
 6.  if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm,
 7.  then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever.
 
Jeremiah 22:3-5
 3.  This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.
 4.  For if you are careful to carry out these commands, then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this palace, riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by their officials and their people.
 5.  But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.'"
 
Jeremiah 22:17
   "But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain, on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion."
 
Jeremiah 26:15
   Be assured, however, that if you put me to death, you will bring the guilt of innocent blood on yourselves and on this city and on those who live in it, for in truth the LORD has sent me to you to speak all these words in your hearing."


Matthew 27:22-25
22.  "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.   They all answered, "Crucify him!"
 23.  "Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.   But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"
 24.  When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"
 25.  All the people answered,
"Let his blood be on us and on our children!"

(Likewise, "What will YOU do with Jesus?")


48 posted on 02/10/2004 11:34:43 AM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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