How Free is Free Republic

kuro5hin.org ^ | Mon Dec 29th, 2003 at 09:53:55 PM EST | felixrayman

[visagoth]

I didn't find this posted here on FR - so here we go.....

	How Free is Free Republic? By felixrayman Mon Dec 29th, 2003 at 09:53:55 PM EST
	Free Republic is an online story and discussion site similar to Kuro5hin.org, but with an explicitly conservative bias. The site proclaims itself to be "an online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web." Intrigued, I proceeded to offer some comments to stories there, addressing some factual errors and dissenting with some conservative views. The result was a quick lesson in the right-wing view of free expression. The experiment left an open question - where do you go on the web to engage conservatives in open debate? Where is the right-wing version of k5?

One article on the Free Republic site entitled "Dean Finally Shoots Self Somewhere Other Than Own Foot" attacks Howard Dean for his statement that "The capture of Saddam has not made America safer". The poster of the article goes on to claim, "If any of the Left is paying attention, Dean has just officially proven the he is DEFINITELY clueless when it comes to foreign policy. Another in a long line of RATS that just doesn't get it". My reply that "Actually it's pretty obvious that the capture of Saddam hasn't made the world safer - international airline flights had to be cancelled a few days ago due to threats of terrorism and in Iraq the last few days have been as bloody for coalition forces as the days before Saddam's capture" was removed by a moderator within a few minutes. A comment posted to another Free Republic story, "Howard Dean: The Mayor of Milwaukee", in an attempt to belittle Howard Dean's fiscal record claimed that the budget of one county in Illinois was larger than the budget of the state of Vermont. It claimed the budget of the County of DuPage, near Chicago, to be $1.6 billion, and that the budget for the entire state of Vermont was $73 million. After a quick google search, I found this assertion to be incorrect. The reply I posted 'The "$73 million" figure you quote is for the Vermont Municipal Employees' Retirement System, not the entire Vermont budget. Vermont's budget calls for 1.8 billion in state spending with another billion in federal spending', was removed within a few minutes. The Free Republic claims in its help section that, "While Free Republic is not edited or censored, it does reserve the right to remove any postings that are considered inappropriate. Examples of inappropriate posts are those that are off-subject or contain advertising, pornography, obscene material, racist material, Nazi (or other hate group) material, materials promoting violence, threats or illegal acts, etc". It would be interesting to know under which category my replies were considered to fall. For another example, a response to the story "You Might be a Leftist If . . ." read, in part "The only meaningful difference is between those who believe in the original intent interpretation of the Constitution and those who do not. Those who believe in the Constitution believe in individual liberty. Those who ignore or rewrite the Constitution do not believe in individual liberty. This is the only difference which matters. " I responded to this poster with the comment "Individual liberty? Didn't the constitution as written specifically allow for the continuation of slavery as an American institution"? Within minutes, the post was removed by a moderator. In addition, after this third reply, my ability to post comments on the site was revoked. So obviously, the Free Republic is not free, except in the sense that the German Democratic Republic was democratic, or the sense that supporting the PATRIOT Act is patriotic. Web site operators certainly have a right to set whatever rules they choose for their users. And a quick test showed that there are sites with a left-wing bias that are just as cowardly as Free Republic when it comes to allowing an actual debate. The question remains, are there any sites with a conservative bias that allow such debate?

Full discussion: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/12/27/173837/60

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[Mears]

As a 71 year old woman who "discovered" FR in November of 2002 it has been a life saver.

I feel much more informed on everything than I did before FR and living in ultra-liberal Newton,MA I often wondered if anyone out there thought like I do. Through this site I find that there are many of us.

My small donations to FR won't make anyone rich but the hours of pleasure and insight that I've gained from FR have been very important to me.I consider the money well spent.

Thanks to all at FR and Happy New Year.

Mears

[Ichneumon]

Thanks for the info. Out of curiosity, is he giving the full picture? I'm wondering about "the rest of the story":

1. Were the sentences he quoted the *entire* replies he made, or in his blast did he "happen to" leave out the more inflammatory parts of his posts?

2. Did he make more than just the three posts he admits to, or did he "forget" to mention others that might not have been more obnoxious?

3. When he whines that each of his posts was removed "within minutes", he neglects to say whether they were made and removed at separate times, or whether (as I suspect) he made them all in a shotgun approach and then he and his posts were all removed at the same time shortly thereafter.

The answers don't matter when it comes to helping me decide whether he should have been removed -- what is known already was sufficient grounds for considering him a troll, and his own confession only confirms that the moderators were dead-on -- but if he has "shaded" the events in his favor his omissions should be exposed.

[Publius6961]

I responded to this poster with the comment "Individual liberty? Didn't the constitution as written specifically allow for the continuation of slavery as an American institution"?

This guy is good! But not good enough. I tend to agree that the moderators were perhaps quick on the trigger, but it's their prerogative and whiners take note.
The above example is beautiful to illustrate this fellow's technique. He veils a criticism of our basic national identy as an answer, although it is irrelevant and discordant with the question. Individual liberty and slavery are mutually exclusive concepts in our current world but not in the 18th century. It has nothing to do with the original thought and redirects, or attempts to redirect the dialogue to the defensive, and is the same technique the sandmaggots use constantly, comparing present day barbarity with 13th century "Christian" excesses. A mind boggling leap of ignorance, but perfectly fitting a highly tuned sophistry.
The good news is that it depends entirely on ignorance, and partially on intellectual dexterity. The way to deal with "shotgun" irrationality (throwing out the same 12 "issues" into every discussion) is to simply ignore it and concentrate on one issue at a time. It's not difficult, and the legends-in-their-own-mind hate it. All the more reason to employ it.

I do hope that this clown is allowed to post again, to be humiliated as is his destiny. Some people are educated waaaaay beyond their intelligence.

[IronJack]

What makes you think that Free Republic champions free speech? Where in its charter does it say that? Remember, you're on private property here, using other peoples' resources. I'd say that gives those people the right to make the rules.

Sorry if that offends your egalitarian sensibilities.

Nah, not really.

[optimistically_conservative]

Since we (more specifically, I) don't have access to the totality of the comments posted, I cannot question your decision identifying him as a troll.

But I do agree with his criticism that his comments did not run afoul of the posting constraints.

I'm left wondering why not ban the account and leave the posts?

I have found posters I consider to the right and left of my views on this forum, sometimes varying given the topic being discussed (foreign policy, economics, social policy, etc.). I enjoy the exchange in all cases, including those that engage in fallacious argument.

For that I thank FR.

[Ichneumon]

I like this comment from that thread:

I agree with you that they're intellectual cowards, but my question is, why did you have to post there to tell that about them? Oh, I see... you got suckered in by the hope that somewhere, there MUST be some neocons who aren't yellow-bellied tank-brains.

Oh yes, the discussion here would be *so* improved if we were were only "brave" enough to let in folks whose idea of intellectual discussion is to call everyone "neocons" who are "yellow-bellied tank-brains".

At least a third of the other posts in that thread are along the same vein: "We're much more mature than those conservative poo-poo heads."

[Admin Moderator]

Happy New Year to you!

[Darksheare]

When you guys Zot someone and his posts disappear, can the Mods still see his posts and the content of them?

[AQGeiger]

For the sake of those rather new to FR (I originally signed up years ago but never really participated on the site until I rediscovered it last week), what does it mean to be nuked, and how is that different from being banned or zotted? I read the Free Republic lexicon but it didn't have any info on this. Thanks on behalf of all the new folks....

[Publius6961]

Wish I could post images so I could post a pic of
my bottle of Laphroaig!

Na na na na

[Admin Moderator]

In some instances we will leave some posts up. As always, if something is pulled you feel should stay, let us know. We can restore specific things. (remember, one troll isn't our only task) Sometimes, there are many posts and to pick and choose; which stay and which are removed can be daunting. Especially with newbie trolls, and for the most part they return over and over. Why bother with their tripe when they just return so many times? So, if something is pulled and you'd like to see it restored, just ask, we can review, and most of the time, we will restore it.

[Lead Moderator]

A nuke is a ban where all the posts are removed by the system as well as the account being removed.

A ban is a nuke where the account goes but the posts stay up.

[Darksheare]

*gasp!*
Scandalous!!

[ladyinred]

And just look at the house Robinson bought!

Hey! Don't you know you can get sued for posting that picture on a public forum! :-)

[Cicero]

I remember this post. It was dumb. We need to see unfriendly news stories posted here, under the principle of knowing your enemy, but we don't need the querelous complaints of left-wing individuals who wouldn't know what rational argument was if it bit them in the foot.

[Admin Moderator]

Yes, there is one option we rarely use though, which is the 'wipe' reply function. We use that for really large graphics, porn, addresses or personal information, etc. Once we wipe a reply, no one can see it. I don't even think John can.

[Publius6961]

As one old timer to another, bless you and belated welcome to FR. Should I ever be acerbic with you, please don't take it personally.
Best wishes for a great 2004. And many more.

[Darksheare]

Cool.
Sounds neat, not sure I'd be able to make sense of it at all myself.

[Republican Wildcat]

Somehow I doubt the posts pulled were as elegant as what he is claiming. Simply pointing out a factual error wouldn't make him be targeted as a troll. He was saying some other things in addition to that, obviously.

[Mears]

Thanks for your welcome and don't worry about being acerbic. I take nothing personally at my age,it makes life much easier to manage.

Happy New Year to you too!!!!