Immigration and Security

The Wall Street Journal ^ | Wednesday, December 24, 2003

[presidio9]

Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge recently committed the political sin of telling the truth. His helpful candor has reopened a much-needed debate over immigration and exposed some of the specious arguments used by those who want to close U.S. borders.

[presidio9]

Here is a typical immigrant school

I think that I have made it very clear that I would support no such thing as an "immigrant school."

Unless it was privately funded.

[presidio9]

The money it takes to "assist the legals and illegals here already if revamped from "services would pay for thousands more border agents and monies left over to back into my damned pocket.

Why would you make that argument when I have made it very clear that I oppose all "assistance?"

[presidio9]

What subjective drivel. Kindly make an argument on your first assertion that allowing just anyone in our country, without supervision or accountability, is safe. And make a second argument that people, who believe that allowing just anyone in our country is not safe, are dishonest, misguided, and racist. And use spell check this time, if you want to be taken seriously.

Kindly list for me the long line of Mexican terrorists that you are so fearful of.

And understand that spelling and punctuation critiques are the last refuge of the unimaginative.

[presidio9]

He probably agrees with me that 2+2=4 as well.

Gotta love that logic: "Some socialists like open borders. Others don't (open borders means lower wages for manual laborers). But some do. Therefore, it follows that people who like open borders are socialists."

Is that about right?

Ask Cletus if he knows that Hillary Clinton wants the borders SEALED.

[FITZ]

Why would you make that argument when I have made it very clear that I oppose all "assistance?"

How can you expect to bring in millions of uneducated, non-English speaking people who have no job skills, when low-skilled jobs are leaving this country to NAFTA, CAFTA, and other free trade, people who have no ability to earn the $20,000 or so it takes for a family with several to many kids to live in the USA, people who come with no money for health insurance and can't pay our high housing costs etc and then not give them government assistance? The reason so many are on government assistance is they have children at a very young age and have low rates of legal marriage, they have no education, they don't speak our language, they work for very low wages that provide them no benefits --- obviously they can't make it on their own ---- a few can but we're not talking about a few.

[FITZ]

Crime is bad, but it exists in every society, and in every culture.

It exists in some societies, some cultures more than in others. There are reasons the crime rate in Mexico is exploding. Open borders doesn't keep the bad guys out.

[presidio9]

How can you expect to bring in millions of uneducated, non-English speaking people who have no job skills, when low-skilled jobs are leaving this country to NAFTA, CAFTA, and other free trade, people who have no ability to earn the $20,000 or so it takes for a family with several to many kids to live in the USA, people who come with no money for health insurance and can't pay our high housing costs etc and then not give them government assistance? The reason so many are on government assistance is they have children at a very young age and have low rates of legal marriage, they have no education, they don't speak our language, they work for very low wages that provide them no benefits --- obviously they can't make it on their own ---- a few can but we're not talking about a few.

Simple: End benefits, and moving away from your familiar surroundings to a place where you do not understand the language suddenly becomes a much less attractive endevour.

[AbsoluteJustice]

Did I post that to you?

May have been in error.

[AbsoluteJustice]

Agendas run abound on these boards. My personal agenda is to freeze the borders until immigration is reformed. As it stands legal immigrants cost this country more than illegals in "services" rendered. They take more than they put in. Why is this? Because INS continues to allow immigrants into this country who can offer no production to society. Why is it asians fare far better than any other class of citizens who come to our shores? Because they dont advocate the victim mentality. they put themselves through school and assimilate to our culture. They aspire to become doctors, lawyers, and the like. They put in more than they receive.

[presidio9]

Why is it asians fare far better than any other class of citizens who come to our shores? Because they dont advocate the victim mentality. they put themselves through school and assimilate to our culture. They aspire to become doctors, lawyers, and the like. They put in more than they receive.

I don't think that you are a racist, but you are going down a very dangerous line of reasoning here. This logic has been preverted in the past.

True, hispanic immigrants tend to come from poorer educational backgrounds, but the ones I have known have been hard workers who are trying to provide for their children. Many second generation hispanics have assimilated nicely. The ones that haven't are the same as other innner city ethnic groups. Again, the problem is government enabling, not ethnicity.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"It exists in some societies>"

OK, tell me which society is devoid of crime.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Open borders doesn't keep the bad guys out."

Now, all you have to do is convince me, or anyone with any sort of intelligence, that we have "open borders".

[AbsoluteJustice]

"True, hispanic immigrants tend to come from poorer educational backgrounds, but the ones I have known have been hard workers who are trying to provide for their children. Many second generation hispanics have assimilated nicely. The ones that haven't are the same as other innner city ethnic groups. Again, the problem is government enabling, not ethnicity."

I agree with almost everything you say in this one BUT the ones you have known are not the ones I speak of. I agree that second generation is very nicely assimilating. But I do know some hispanics myself that WILL NOT learn the language and are ticked that things are not given to them. English in this country IS the language of success.
There have MANY poor people to work their ways through school and not use the crutch of their past to still maintain the level of pity needed to get a Gov. Check every month. I do not believe it is ethnicity and is government enabling. But I will tell you one thing crime rates in SO. California compared against immigrant migration have risen DRAMATICALLY just over the past 10 years. This is no coincidence. Couple that with the millions on the dole and you have a societal problem built around one ethnic group.

[FITZ]

I think all societies have some crime --- but some societies have very high crime rates, some have fairly low crime rates. There are usually cultural and political reasons for the differences.

[FITZ]

Yes we've got open borders --- in fact many will claim that they can not be closed ---- neither the northern nor the southern border because they're 2000 miles long.

[FITZ]

Simple: End benefits

How do we possibly end benefits when millions of indigent people with no other means of obtaining health care or meeting their living needs is moving over and voting in politicians who promise them otherwise? Look at the high illegitimacy rates of many of the newcomers --- motherhood at 13 years of age ---- they aren't going to survive without welfare handouts. Mexico doesn't give them welfare --- but you will see their little girls begging on the street corners with their little babies in their arms.

[Missouri]

Others are camoflaging racist opinions.

Some socialists like open borders. Therefore, it follows that people who like open borders are socialists."

First, you pull out the race card. Then, when someone lumps YOU in with the socialist you object and start with the name-calling. What goes around, comes around.

Hillary Clinton wants the borders SEALED

SEALED ?

How about a link to that exact statement.

[Luis Gonzalez]

When yo base an argument in an obvious lie, or a transparant gfallacy, your argument, however valid it may be, falls apart.

The U.S. Birder Patrol apprehended in excess of 1 million people attempting to enter the US illegally in fiscal 2001, the numbers are slightly lower d=for 2002.

Those numbers destroy the entire "we have open borders" claptrap.

[FITZ]

How many were apprehended after they were well over the border --- found in semi trucks and holding houses? It's estimated that over a million are coming in every year illegally ---- but also I know first hand it's not difficult to get over the border in this area. I've got neighbors who just came over that way ---- 2 were deported when they got on their bikes and rode them down I-10 headed for California --- they made it all the way to Deming, they ended over in Juarez but were back within a couple days. Another one got his laser visa taken away because they said he was coming over too often --- they figured he had to be working here --- which he was, of course he's back and still working here. It's not at all difficult to make it over the border.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"How many were apprehended after they were well over the border --- found in semi trucks and holding houses?"

Who cares. they were apprehended and sent back.

We can't possibly stop every murder from happening either, but that does not mean that we have a murder-permissive society.

"It's estimated that over a million are coming in every year illegally."

"Estimated"?

Estimated by whom?

By the same people who, in spite of the very real, very verifiable statistics on the number if people who are stopped from entering the country illegally each year claim that we have "open borders"?

I guess we have no law enforcement because there are millions of crimes every year.

I guess we have an anything-goes society because you can buy drugs in every city and town in America.

I guess that since we can't stop all crime, we may as well just throw our hands up and give up.

"It's not that difficult to get over the border."

Oh yeah?

By your own unsubstantiated, alarmist estimates, 50% who try to do it get caught.

I don't call that "easy".