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With their fanatical zeal, you have to wonder how far busybodies will go
Sun.Com ^ | 4 August 2002 | PAUL JACKSON

Posted on 08/05/2002 5:09:05 AM PDT by SheLion

"A woman is only a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke" -- Groucho Marx

Frankly, I'd far rather have the companionship of a woman than even a good cigar, but that's the way one of the greatest comedians in the world expressed his love for cigars.

But, I'll give it to Groucho, in a free society an individual should be allowed to make their own choices.

Duck Soup Groucho died at the ripe old age of 87, which surely shows smoking cigars was not bad for his health.

Sir Winston Churchill, arguably the greatest man of the 20th century, smoked cigars incessantly, drank like a fish, and ate as much red meat as he could get his hands on.

Winnie lived to be 91.

Adolf Hitler, along with Josef Stalwas one of the most evil men of the 20th century, was a vegetarian, abstained from alcohol, and would not allow smoking anywhere he was. Hitler shot himself in despair at the age of 64.

Now, would you rather pattern yourself after Winston Churchill or Adolf Hitler?

Well, the anti-smoking zealots surely don't want to you to pattern yourself after Churchill and from their rigid, fanatical authoritarian and totalitarian psyche, you might well wonder just how far they'll go if they successfully ban smoking.

Some are already pushing the vegetarian agenda, others animal "rights."

Junk food and fast food are already being targeted, and some 'animal rights' types don't believe people should be allowed to keep pets -- that's enslaving an animal.

Yes, we're dealing not only with zealots here, but 100% proof crackpots. It's amazing politicians -- even Calgary's city council -- listen to them.

In my column "Orwellian dreams" (July 30) I pointed out how mean-spirited, petty busybodies --- some of them on city council -- are threatening to bring financial disaster to hundreds of small bars, restaurants and pool halls.

And at the same time throw thousands of young waiters and waitresses out of jobs as they enforce draconian smoking bans on these enterprising people.

I centred on Charlie Mendelman, owner of The Garage Billiards Bar and Restaurant in Eau Claire, who is typical of small owners who are now at the mercy of the city's stringent anti-smoking committee.

That column was well-received -- Charlie's a popular fellow in town -- but a couple of readers said I had neglected to mention an extremely valid point.

It is this: While the city plans to ban smoking entirely in "public" places, a bar, restaurant, pool or bingo hall or casino are not "public" places.

A "public" place is owned by the public -- through a government agency, usually -- but none of the bars, restaurants and other businesses now under threat from our aldermen are owned by the city or any other government.

They are owned by men and women who have often invested their life savings in them.

In a free society, such places are called private property.

That they are not public property where any citizen can freely enter is also evidenced by the fact that Charlie and his fellow bar owners are legally entitled to refuse admission to anyone they do not want in their establishments -- and can throw you out should your behaviour upset them.

Neither Mendelman nor any other bar or restaurant owner I have spoken with wants to prevent any other owner from voluntarily banning smoking in their establishments, they just want customers to have a freedom of choice in whether they want to go to a bar that allows smoking or one that doesn't.

Seems sensible to me.

Now here I'm indebted to American author and consultant Craig J. Cantoni, who put the matter of freedom of choice in a nutshell in a column in the Arizona Republican.

This is what Cantoni had to say: Free markets work this way: Person A allows smoking in his Mexican restaurant. Person B believes in the second-hand smoke hysteria spread by the anti-smoking fanatics, so he chooses to eat at a Mexican restaurant that bans smoking.

Person C refuses to eat at any Mexican restaurant because he does not want to clog his arteries with lard-drenched refried beans.

Person D does not worry about secondhand smoke or secondhand beans, so he patronizes Person A's restaurant.

All four people have made their own free choices and taken their own responsibility for their own decisions.

Seems pretty sensible to me.

To you, too, probably.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jackson, associate editor of the Sun, can be reached at paul.jackson@calgarysun.com. Letters to the editor should be sent to callet@sunpub.com.



TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Canada; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: antismokers; butts; cigarettes; individualliberty; michaeldobbs; niconazis; prohibitionists; pufflist; smokingbans; taxes; tobacco
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To: mysterio
"Is it your right to create legislation to prevent people from smoking or engaging in other activities which harm their health?"

Who said I wanted to do this? I don't. I'm a conservative in the true sense of the word. I do however object to the "smoking is not really bad for you - just look at Winston Churchill" mantra that passes for debate on our forum.

61 posted on 08/05/2002 9:36:45 AM PDT by Dr. Luv
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Comment #62 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr. Luv
Agreed. Smoking is most certainly bad for you. Some people do have extraordinary ability to repair the DNA damage inflicted by the carcinogens in tobacco smoke. These people, however, seem to be more the exception than the rule. Taking a chance that you may be one of those people is truly a long shot. If you smoke, you will most likely die of a smoking related illness.

However, I will not feed the government machine so that it can make peoples' choices for them.
63 posted on 08/05/2002 9:45:31 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: plowhand
who kills more dr.s or cigs

Whether you like what the Dr. is saying or not, he sounds like many of the fine Dr.s today who deal with cigarette deseases. Your comment is unfair. Do you want doctors encouraging cigerette smoking?

64 posted on 08/05/2002 9:45:47 AM PDT by KDD
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To: Dr. Luv
You're calling me an idiot, because I've stated that none of my dead friends, people who ranged from a MassPort Commissioner to a Mafia hitman to one of the best high school basketball players you or anyone else has ever seen, cried, blubbered or broke down when faced with the bad news?

I guess you have to be an oncologist, specially trained in tunnel vision, to run out of arguments that quickly.

Self-righteous boob.

65 posted on 08/05/2002 9:47:08 AM PDT by metesky
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To: metesky
That OK with you, sir.

Sure ,but why should you care. I almost agreed with you . Almost.

Every person, whether it's cancer or some other disease, goes through denial ,anger, selfishness, fear. Only an ignorant man would think otherwise.

I'm almost sixty years old

Really, I'm glad for you. Me too. Not next year though.

66 posted on 08/05/2002 9:49:48 AM PDT by Snowyman
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To: metesky
Wrong. I called you an idiot because you said: "You must see the weak ones then"

As someone who has seen many, many, many more people who have died of cancer than you have, I stand by my conviction that everyone cries at some point...and there's nothing "weak" about it...

67 posted on 08/05/2002 9:56:23 AM PDT by Dr. Luv
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To: mysterio
"However, I will not feed the government machine so that it can make peoples' choices for them."

Agreed.

68 posted on 08/05/2002 9:57:30 AM PDT by Dr. Luv
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To: SheLion
Nice! bttt
69 posted on 08/05/2002 9:59:41 AM PDT by lodwick
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To: Dr. Luv
We're gonna have to agree to disagree I guess, because nothing you say will sway me and it appears the same holds for you.

Have a nice day, Dr.

70 posted on 08/05/2002 10:01:34 AM PDT by metesky
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To: SheLion
While the city plans to ban smoking entirely in "public" places, a bar, restaurant, pool or bingo hall or casino are not "public" places.

Nor are shopping malls. Streets are, though unless they are just public access easements and not dedicated rights-of-way. They can ban smoking on the street but not on easements.

71 posted on 08/05/2002 10:02:58 AM PDT by RightWhale
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To: dighton; SheLion
Rudyard Kipling's "The Betrothed" (See the 2nd to last paragraph for yout quote)

You must choose between me and your cigar"
-- Breach Of Promise Case, Circa 1885

Open the old cigar box, get me a Cuba stout,
For things are running crossways, and Maggie and I are out.

We quarrelled about Havanas -- we fought o'er a good cheroot,
And I know she is exacting, and she says I am a brute.

Open the old cigar-box -- let me consider a space;
In the soft blue veil of the vapour musing on Maggie's face.

Maggie is pretty to look at - Maggie's a loving lass,
But the prettiest cheeks must wrinkle, the truest of loves must pass.

There's peace in a Larranaga, there's calm in a Henry Clay;
But the best cigar in an hour is finished and thrown away --

Thrown away for another as perfect and ripe and brown --
But I could not throw away Maggie for fear o' the talk of the town!

Maggie, my wife at fifty -- grey and dour and old --
With never another Maggie to purchase for love or gold!

And the light of Days that have Been and the dark of the Days that Are,
And Love's torch stinking and stale, like the butt of a dead cigar --

The butt of a dead cigar you are bound to keep in your pocket --
With never a new one to light tho' it's charred and black to the socket!

Open the old cigar-box -- let me consider awhile.
Here is a mild Manilla -- there is a wifely smile.

Which is the better portion -- bondage bought with a ring,
Or a harem of dusky beauties, fifty tied in a string?

Counsellors cunning and silent -- comforters true and tried,
And never a one of the fifty to sneer at a rival bride?

Thought in the early morning, solace in time of woes,
Peace in the hush of twilight, balm ere my eyelids close,

This will the fifty give me, asking nought in return,
With only a Suttee's passion -- to do their duty and burn.

This will the fifty give me. When they are spent and dead,
Five times other fifties shall be my servants instead.

The furrows of far-off Java, the Isles of the Spanish Main, When they hear my harem is empty will send me my brides again.

I will take no heed to their raiment, nor food for their mouths withal,
So long as the gulls are nesting, so long as the showers fall.

I will scent'em with best vanilla, with tea will I temper their hides,
And the Moor and the Morman shall envy who read of the tale of my brides.

For Maggie has written a letter to give me my choice between
The wee little whimpering Love and the great god Nick o' Teen.

And I have been servant of Love for barely a twelvemonth clear,
But I have been Priest of Cabanas a matter of seven year;

And the gloom of my bachelor days is flecked with the cheery light
Of stumps that I burned to Friendship and Pleasure and Work and Fight.

And I turn my eyes to the future that Maggie and I must prove,
But the only light o the marshes is the Will-o'-the-Wisp of Love.

Will it see me safe through my journey or leave me bogged in the mire?
Since a puff of tobacco can cloud it, shall I follow the fitful fire?

Open the old cigar-box -- let me consider anew --
Old friends, and who is Maggie that I should abandon you?

A million surplus Maggies are willing to bear the yoke;
And a woman is only a woman, but a Cigar is a Smoke.

Light me another Cuba -- I hold to my first-sworn vows.
If Maggie will have no rival, I'll have no Maggie for Spouse!



72 posted on 08/05/2002 10:16:40 AM PDT by Gothmog
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To: Dr. Luv
As they lie on their beds facing the inevitable, they all look up and say one thing: "Why did I do this to myself and my family?"

So.......you think that if one doesn't smoke, one is going to live FOREVER? If people didn't smoke, then they would put YOU out of a job, am I not correct? Or is smoking the only thing that causes lung cancer? How about "black lung." Many miners get black lung and many do not smoke.

You know, Doktor, life is full of choices. Its your job to heal the sick, not bitch about HOW they got sick!

And about that "40-year-old father who cried buckets in the end": No one FORCED that man to smoke! No one put a GUN to his head to puff on a cigarette everyday!

That's pretty young for a guy to die of cancer. There has to be something else in play here. Although you won't admit it! Your just a die hard anti smoker, admit it.

I bet your bed side manner for an obese person who is dying from kidney disease is a LOT different. Well, thank God I will never have to have Doktor LUV as MY physician!

Oh yes, if your truely a Doctor, how much is YOUR hospital receiving from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation? They give huge grants to dis the smokers!

73 posted on 08/05/2002 10:18:53 AM PDT by SheLion
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To: metesky
When I first came to FR over two years ago, I received advice from a fellow physician that, until today, I have studiously followed. "Never engage a smoker on a smoking thread. There's not one thing that you can say, not one painful experience you can relate that will make them change their minds."

How true he was and how foolish of me to think otherwise...

74 posted on 08/05/2002 10:19:49 AM PDT by Dr. Luv
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To: maxwell
Is that a pic of you, She??! DagGONE... Damn, Max! You mean this one??????

Yep! That's me!!!!!!

75 posted on 08/05/2002 10:35:39 AM PDT by SheLion
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To: DonQ
Second, yes, you can find smokers and drinkers who lived to a ripe old age, and health fanatics who died young, but it's worth remembering that Groucho and Churchill were prosperous enough to get the very best medical attention to prevent or cure some of their symptoms, the sort of attention that most of us couldn't afford.

Ah, yes, but most of the folks who lived to be older than anyone else in the world--8 of the oldest 10--were not wealthy and did not have the alleged benefit of medical attention, but they did smoke.(No, I'm not saying that smoking is necessarily "healthy," only that it has been tarred with a too-broad brush.) In fact, just last week an article profiled Hava Raxha who has smoked for 105 years and plans to celebrate her 122nd birthday on August 14th in the village of Shushice, in the district of Elbasan, Albania.

76 posted on 08/05/2002 10:38:09 AM PDT by Max McGarrity
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To: Dr. Luv
When I first came to FR over two years ago, I received advice from a fellow physician that, until today, I have studiously followed. "Never engage a smoker on a smoking thread. There's not one thing that you can say, not one painful experience you can relate that will make them change their minds."
People on both sides sometimes forget that the important debate, in a political sense, isn't whether or not smoking is bad. It's whether or not the government should be banning it (or forcing private businesses to), in order to "protect" us from ourselves. The same point is often forgotten in the WoD debates.

-Eric

77 posted on 08/05/2002 10:38:56 AM PDT by E Rocc
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To: Dr. Luv
Personally, I don't think your a Doctor at all.

Just my opinion.

78 posted on 08/05/2002 10:42:56 AM PDT by MaineRebel
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To: Dr. Luv
EVERY SINGLE DAY, I have smokers and their families sitting in my office crying when I tell them that an early death is likely. When I tell them that there's nothing more I can do. When they realize that "their habit" has caused the horrific pain that is cancer.

What do those patients and their families who do NOT smoke do when you tell them there's nothing more you can do and an early death is likely because of cancer? Jump for joy because they have nothing to blame?

Many of them were as smug as you...

I recently read in the Journal of the American Medical Association that doctors are the third leading cause of death in this country. I'll bet many of them are as smug as you...

79 posted on 08/05/2002 10:43:53 AM PDT by Max McGarrity
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To: Dr. Luv
<----KNOCK KNOCK YOUR HEAD. IS ANYONE HOME???
80 posted on 08/05/2002 10:47:44 AM PDT by SheLion
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