Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn)

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

Approaching The Green Dragon Inn
Hobbiton, in The Shire

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien

Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.

This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.

When we are ready to move on, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.

If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.

Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.

One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many and take up bandwidth, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to guard and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.

Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.

*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.

[sweetliberty]

"is the LoTR written with the expectation that the reader will have already read The Hobbit?"

Hard to say. I can't imagine reading LOTR without having read the Hobbit, but I'm sure it is unnecessary. It certainly gave more life and color and background to the whole story for me.

[Valpal1]

Please, may I be on the ping list too? Thanks

[BibChr]

About my second or third reading, I began noticing how the style gradually changes, as if transitioning from the light, for-children tone of The Hobbit, to the darker, more classic tone adopted for the bulk of LOTR.

The oddest single element signalling that we're close to The Hobbit's style (not in this chapter) is where Tolkien tells us what a fox is thinking! ("Hobbits! At this hour! Well, I'll be dipped!" -- or words to that effect.)

Dan

[HairOfTheDog]

True enough... The story alludes to images and values we understand and relate to... and what WE see in the story, from our own experience is what gives it the deep texture. I have dealt with estates, and see allegory in the Sackville-Bagginses, but I am fairly sure Tolkien did not know my particular aunt.

[Overtaxed]

Can we start calling her "Granny Galariel" or would Gimli take exception?

[Overtaxed]

Galariel should be "Galadriel" (can't type today!)

[HairOfTheDog]

What about the "dirty trick" aspect of the beginning... Once Bilbo gets through the decision to give up the ring, in essence Gandalf says "This ring is evil and it is destroying you, give it young Frodo here, whom you love" and Bilbo readily agrees...

Granted, Gandalf does not yet know what the ring truly is, and even after the incredible struggle to give up the ring, clearly Bilbo still does not recognize the magnitude of its danger. But Frodo was not given a choice in the matter, and neither Gandalf or Bilbo appear to feel any guilt about inflicting him with it.

[jrherreid]

I wouldn't call her that if he had his axe on hand...

[Penny1]

That was something I really appreciated about the movie--showing that moment when Gandalf touches the ring really drove home the reality that he had no choice but to leave the ring with Frodo.

Gandalf never actually touches the ring does he? In the book, I mean (I'm sorry, I haven't done my homework yet--too busy with work).

I wonder, too, if he figured that the ring would have no real effect as long as Frodo never put it on or kept it with him. If he just had it in the house, hidden away somewhere, then it wouldn't be a problem--at least, maybe that was Gandalf's rationale.

The way Frodo responded to the ring--putting it away and never using it or taking it out--seemed to justify Gandalf's trust that the ring would not tempt him and would not have an effect on him...until and unless he used it.

-penny

[HairOfTheDog]

OK historians, what about the passage of time in these books? The ages of the hobbits seem within reason to our ages... and the reader is given the idea that hobbits mature more slowly, at 33 Frodo is just now "coming of age".

This is clearly off-chapter but important, but how do we file Aragorn's age? He is clearly a young man by his description, although he says he is "older than he looks" he still appears to be a man in his prime. Any insight on the ages in Middle Earth?

[JenB]

Yup! Aragorn is of Numenorean descent, and they are a long-lived race. Elros lived several hundred years - five hundred? and his descendants are also long-lived. Aragorn has a lifespan 'thrice that of lesser men'. So, divide his 90 by three, and you get thirty. But that's no longer normal for Middle-Earth, even among those of Numenorean descent. Aragorn's long life is, I believe, a special gift to him.

[RosieCotton]

I wouldn't call her that if he had his axe on hand...

Me either! He's definitely a mite touchy where Galadriel is concerned...

[Publius]

Aragorn, like the other "lost" kings of Gondor, could live to a very late age and would age slowly. He also had the ability and right to decide the time and place of his own demise. Having descended from the line of Elros of Numenor, brother of Elron, there was the promise of long life and wisdom.

[BibChr]

...his key moment in the trial was while cross-examining a fellow who said that the movie was a "gross misrepresentation of Tolkien's work". Pearce asked the man one question. "How many times have you seen the movie?" "Six." The defense rested, and the jury ruled in Jackson's favor.

The burst of laughter this provoked startled my coworkers!

Dan

[Publius]

At the Council of Rivendell, Gandalf not only touches the ring, he throws it into the fire to display the orcish runes containing the poem that defines the ring's purpose.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

Elros, the brother of Elrond, chose to live as a mortal, but the elvish blood that was in him did not disappear. His decendants, the Numenoreans, had a direct and relatively pure blood line back to Elros, and as a result had life-spans of 500 years or so. (Yes, inbreeding creates twelve-toed hillbillies, but it also creates Sweden.) Aragorn, who had a very pure bloodline, recieves the longevity that it imbues. Most others who came from Numenorean stock had their bloodline diluted and so very few elvish qualities, such as long life, could be seen in them.

It seems to me that Tolkien basically doubled the age of English countrymen from his time to set the events normally seen in hobbits. Coming of age is 33 (16 to 17), 111 is an auspicious age (55 or so) and Bilbo living to around 130 before sailing off would be a ripe 65 for a early century English countryman.

[RosieCotton]

You know, I've never understood why some people say that the first part of FOTR is booorrring, and that you have to force yourself through it to get to the real meat of the story. I mean, in a sense that's true - the real action doesn't start until later on. But it's such a FUN chapter! The Gaffer telling stories at the Inn...the secret preparations for the party...Bilbo having to put up with annoying relatives (something we can ALL relate to, I think!)...all the little details of the party - the fireworks, the food, the crackers, all the different hobbits...

Maybe I'm just a hobbit at heart, but I love every minute of it, and it's one chapter I've read and re-read just on its own.

[BibChr]

Right, we're agreed on how that comes off. "Oh, look! You found Bilbo's ring!" he smiles. Eek.

But it's sort of a least-worst situation, isn't it? If he takes it, the world is a smoking ruin. If he picks it up with tongs, withstands the temptation to touch it, tosses it in the sea, it will turn up again.

But looking at Bilbo, who's had it for decades, it had become addictive, but had not utterly corrupted him. And he was able (if barely) to part with it, in the end. After DECADES of ownership and use.

And hehad no intent of Frodo having it that long.

So I suppose, having said all that, letting Frodo keep it was the "least-worst" of many bad scenarios.

Dan

[HairOfTheDog]

He only touches it in the envelope, like in the film.

..."Very well," said Bilbo, "it goes to Frodo with all the rest." He drew a deep breath "And now I really must be starting, or somebody else will catch me. I have said good-bye, and I couldn't bear to do it all over again." He picked up his bag and moved to the door.

"You have still got the ring in your pocket," said the wizard.

"Well so I have!" cried Bilbo. "And my will and all the other documents too. You had better take it and deliver it for me. That will be safest."

No, don't give the ring to me," said Gandalf. "Put it on the mantelpiece. It will be safe enought there, till Frodo comes. I shall wait for him."

Bilbo took out the envelope, but just as he was about to set it by the clock, his hand jerked back, and the packet fell on the floor. Before he could pick it up, the wizard stooped and seized it and set it in its place. A spasm of anger passed swiftly over the hobbit's face again. Suddenly it gave way to a look of relief and a laugh. "Well, that's that," he said. "Now I'm off!"...

[Carolina]

Aragorn was born in 2931, Third Age and Bilbo's Farewell Feast was in 3001, T.A. So that puts him at 70 at the open of the first chapter.

Source is Appendix B.