M1911 vs. M9

The Sight M1911-A1 ^ | unknown | unattributed

[Dawgsquat]

M1911vsM9

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M1911 vs. M9

In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon.

Defenders of the 1911 will vehemently contest these last three perceptions, pointing to the superior trigger and durability of the 1911, and the superior stopping power and inherent accuracy of the .45 ACP cartridge. In terms of safety, three conditions must be met for the cocked and locked 1911 to fire: (1) a firing grip must depress the grip safety; (2) the manual safety must be taken off, and (3) the trigger must be pulled. Nevertheless, it looks scary and the Armed Forces have documented negligent discharges from improperly handled pistols.

It could be said that the 1911 fell victim to its own mythology. I grew up hearing the stories of the .45--that it kicked so badly that an inexperienced person couldn't hit a door from twenty feet away with one, that a man, struck anywhere on the body by a .45 round would be knocked down as if hit by a truck, and that you could shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45. (A Zero was downed with a .45 but by a head shot on the pilot by an American aviator parachuting from a bomber. The Zero was trying to strafe the American.) In 1998 The FBI S.W.A.T. team adopted the Springfield 1911A1 as standard issue. Anecdotal evidence out of Desert Storm indicates that the Berettas jammed because of the fine sand in the desert and the Marines broke out the 1911's.

My Own Opinion:

The M9, Beretta 92 F, has the smoothest slide and the lightest recoil spring of any major caliber pistol I know of. When you rack the slide of the M9, you can feel the precision and quality of its manufacture. Those bottomless 15-round magazines could prove to be life savers should you decide to shoot it out with the Crips or invade a small foreign country. My wife is of the opinion that the Beretta is the nicest shooting autoloader around. It has a very good trigger for a DA/SA and the long barrel and sight radius give it adequate accuracy.

Too bad the 92 F is a 9mm. The 9mm is a reasonable defensive round. It will do its part if you do yours, but of course, the same could be said of a .32 caliber pocket gun. Questions have been raised about the "stopping power" of the 9mm and people whose lives depend on their handguns have been migrating away from the 9mm and toward the .40 S&W and .45 ACP in recent years. If I had to shoot someone and I had one shot to do the job, I'd rather that shot be a 230 grain .45 ACP.

My target and competition gun is a Kimber Compact. The question of "inherent accuracy" is the grist of endless debates, but I do believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others. I base this on nothing more than my own experience with shooting them. In my hands, .38 and .45 are more accurate rounds than 9mm and .40 S&W. I shoot .45 with much greater accuracy than I do 9mm, so it is more rewarding for me to shoot .45 for fun and competition. .45 ACP is heavier and more expensive than 9mm, and folks who are particularly recoil sensitive will enjoy the 9mm more than the .45. Last, but not least, 9mm pistols tend to be lighter and more comfortable to carry than 1911s, although some lightweight models of the 1911 are beginning to appear.

Did the Armed Forces make a good choice? Well, I hope so. The M1911 isn't the best gun for a beginner. In an absolute sense, the M9 is probably safer at ready than an M1911, although, in the hands of a trained person, the 1911 is perfectly safe. The additional rounds might also be an advantage to the nominally trained soldier or law enforcement officer possessed of marginal marksmanship. Which one do I like the best? The M1911, of course.

 

MORE BERETTA 92 LINKS

Beretta's Model 92FS Page

Beretta Info Page

Francesco's Unofficial Beretta Page

M9 Manual (PDF) from BiggerHammer

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This page was last updated on 12/13/01

[XJarhead]

The Armed Forces have more than nominal firearms training, and some training is with weapons even more powerful than the pistol, hard to imagine but true.

I'm not sure how much pistol training the military actually gets. I was an artillery officer in the Marines, and I average maybe 3-4 days of pistol firing per year. Tops. And I do not think that was unusual. I also noted that the average score for newly commissioned Lts. was higher with the Beretta than with the 1911. They simply shot better with it.

An M1911 may well be the better weapon for experienced marksmen who do a lot of shooting, but those folk are in the minority. Given the actual level of expertise of most of the people who carry the weapon in the military, the Beretta is the better weapon, IMHO.

[glock rocks]

I believe Kimber makes a model that takes 10+1. You might look at that.

The new Ultra Ten II™ combines the features of the Stainless Ultra Carry with a shorter, lighter version of the Polymer Series frame that has a 7075-T7 aluminum frame insert and ten round magazine capacity. It is the first Kimber pistol to be introduced with the Kimber Firing Pin Safety. Weighing just 24 ounces, the Ultra Ten II sets a new standard for dependable, lightweight and concealable high capacity .45 ACP pistols.

[Poohbah]

My experience with ol' slabsides was generally positive, except for the GI version.

Some were nicely put together, and you could practically send all of your bullets through the same hole.

And others seemed to act like they'd been assemblied by half-trained dyslexic monkeys, and would jam or scatter your rounds to the four winds.

Privately-owned 1911s seemed to be much better on quality control.

Berettas were never the tightest-shooting pistol you ever fired, but they were consistently the same level of accuracy from one piece to the next.

[xsrdx]

The training the Armed Forces get is a joke. It is a disgrace. It is a national scandal.

I won't disagree entirely, but it does depend on the unit. In the Army, Ranger, SF and light infantry units spend considerable time on the range training with small arms - rifle and machine guns. Not always quality time, but they do train. Mech infantry gets less small arms time, but they still have pretty rigid qualification requirements. Basic training doesn't teach soldiers beyond the fundamentals, the combat unit to which they are assigned has to teach them the details. I will concur training in the art of marksmanship has declined significantly since the Garand era, or even Vietnam.

If you examine what systems do the most killing on the battlefield, the individual rifleman is not much of a factor. Artillery (rocket and cannon), heavy weapons (tank/BFV/.50BMG/Mk19), squad automatic weapons (SAW/M240/M60) and air support (rotary and fixed wing) have much more influence on the outcome of the fight than Joe's ability to hit targets that are by design working very hard not to get hit.

[wjcsux]

I concur on the Beretta. The Sig P-226 was one of the pistols that was in the initial competition for the U.S. sidearm. It is a far superior gun. The only 9mms that I think are worth anything are the CZ-75, Glocks, Browning High Power, and the Sig. They still have the drawback of shooting the 9mm cartridge. I much prefer my Springfield Armory National Match .45 ACP.

[SJackson]

And this is of scintillating interest to FReepers generally, exactly HOW?

I liked it.

[balrog666]

Question (forgive me if this is a dumb one): I read this article as saying that the .45 holds seven rounds. Does this mean that the "high capactity" magazine ban did not affect .45's? In other words, it didn't make any difference because none of them were made for "high capacity" magazines anyway? If not-- if there are .45's that will accept a so-called "high capactity" magazine-- are they desirable? Ought one go ahead and get one now, while there are still pre-ban magazines available? If so, which one?

Sorry, but I don't have the foggiest. I suppose you could find a high capacity .45 magazine but I've never seen one that wasn't homemade. My guess is that it would stick out a long way and be rather inconvenient to handle.

Maybe someone else will provide an answer...

[eyes_only]

I've got some 45 ACP 10rd magazines from Wilson Combat.

I believe they call them the "bureaucrat"...

[eyes_only]

Zounds like the 29 rd .40s&w mags that fit my g22 and g23.

Funny lookin' but they last a long time...

[AAABEST]

I've never fired the Glock in .45. How long is the barrel on yours? My friend has a Glock .45, it's beautiful weapon. Balanced, accurate and comfortable. Light for it's caliber, easy to maintain and almost perfect mechanically. The only thing about it is it's hard to fill the mag to capacity because the spring is so damn tight.

I don't understand why anyone would have a prob with the recoil. It doesn't bother me a bit. His wife and my wife (she's 4' 11", 95 lbs) both shot it and it didn't bother them either.

I think the polymer makeup of the Glock would offer less recoil than say a Browning model.

[eyes_only]

I much prefer my Springfield Armory National Match .45 ACP.

Is that like the Trophy Match?

[Shooter 2.5]

A group was doing an inventory of an Army installation and they found leaky barracks and armories. The weapons were rusting in the racks. I noticed that some of our guys in Afganistan had the black worn off the M-4s and you could see the aluminum showing through. I think it was last year when the army didn't have any 9MM ammo to train with. They ran out. I shoot with some reservists and all they do is shake their heads. I bought 6 rifle slings for some Marine Reservists last year because they didn't have any. To be ironic about it, I bought the slings from the CMP. I took a pistol class and the instuctors didn't have a good thing to say about how the SEALs shoot. I took a rifle class and the instructors didn't have a good thing to say how the SEALs shoot.

You know who I blame for all of this. I just don't want to mention the %&*#@&%$'s name or that cow he's "married" to.

[Lazamataz]

And this is of scintillating interest to FReepers generally, exactly HOW?

Many if not most Freepers are firearms enthusists.

If you don't like this thread, there are lots of other places for you to be ignorant and proud of it, or out of your area of expertise. Keep looking, you'll find one!

[Lazamataz]

You mean there are some that arent?

Well, Illbay. He's also never served in the military. However, he will certainly lecture you about military strategy and tactics.

His credentials? He was the Captain of his Debate Team in High School!!!

[Billthedrill]

I forgot to mention the REAL ultimate combat pistol, the one that makes even a tricked-out IPSC racegun look like a tinker toy. It's the infamous HellGlock

You wouldn't know anything about this pistol...wouldja?

[eloy]

If you want a hollow point for .45 acp that feeds flawlessly use the Speer Gold Dot in both 230gr and 185gr. The copper jacket has the same contour as the FMJ. I've never had one misfeed in any of my 1911's.

[Lazamataz]

You wouldn't know anything about this pistol...wouldja?

(slowly backing out of the room)

No. No, I couldn't tell you anything about that.

(makes a mad dash and runs away)

[45Auto]

The standard .45 ACP model of 1911 will take an eight round mag, but it was designed for the seven rounder; the Paraordnance P14.45 had a 14 round capacity with its double-stack mag, now 'outlawed' by the stupid 1994 so-called 'crime bill' (the only real crime was the bill itself.); the Glock 21 has a 13 round standard mag, now only for law enforcement, unless you can find some old mags around prior to the 1994 stupid law.