M1911 vs. M9

The Sight M1911-A1 ^ | unknown | unattributed

[Dawgsquat]

M1911vsM9

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M1911 vs. M9

In 1985, the United States Armed Forces replaced the M1911 with the Beretta 92 F to the everlasting consternation of 1911 devotees everywhere. There were several reasons for the switch. The U.S. was the only NATO country not using a 9mm as the standard issue sidearm and there was a desire to issue a pistol chambered for the ubiquitous 9mm for logistical reasons. The Beretta will hold 15 rounds in its magazine as compared with 7 rounds of the military issue 1911 magazine and is lighter and easier to field strip than the 1911. The double action/single action Beretta was perceived as being a safer pistol to carry in a state of readiness than the "cocked and locked" 1911. In some quarters, the .45 ACP was viewed as too powerful and difficult to control for those having only nominal training with the weapon.

Defenders of the 1911 will vehemently contest these last three perceptions, pointing to the superior trigger and durability of the 1911, and the superior stopping power and inherent accuracy of the .45 ACP cartridge. In terms of safety, three conditions must be met for the cocked and locked 1911 to fire: (1) a firing grip must depress the grip safety; (2) the manual safety must be taken off, and (3) the trigger must be pulled. Nevertheless, it looks scary and the Armed Forces have documented negligent discharges from improperly handled pistols.

It could be said that the 1911 fell victim to its own mythology. I grew up hearing the stories of the .45--that it kicked so badly that an inexperienced person couldn't hit a door from twenty feet away with one, that a man, struck anywhere on the body by a .45 round would be knocked down as if hit by a truck, and that you could shoot down a Japanese Zero with a .45. (A Zero was downed with a .45 but by a head shot on the pilot by an American aviator parachuting from a bomber. The Zero was trying to strafe the American.) In 1998 The FBI S.W.A.T. team adopted the Springfield 1911A1 as standard issue. Anecdotal evidence out of Desert Storm indicates that the Berettas jammed because of the fine sand in the desert and the Marines broke out the 1911's.

My Own Opinion:

The M9, Beretta 92 F, has the smoothest slide and the lightest recoil spring of any major caliber pistol I know of. When you rack the slide of the M9, you can feel the precision and quality of its manufacture. Those bottomless 15-round magazines could prove to be life savers should you decide to shoot it out with the Crips or invade a small foreign country. My wife is of the opinion that the Beretta is the nicest shooting autoloader around. It has a very good trigger for a DA/SA and the long barrel and sight radius give it adequate accuracy.

Too bad the 92 F is a 9mm. The 9mm is a reasonable defensive round. It will do its part if you do yours, but of course, the same could be said of a .32 caliber pocket gun. Questions have been raised about the "stopping power" of the 9mm and people whose lives depend on their handguns have been migrating away from the 9mm and toward the .40 S&W and .45 ACP in recent years. If I had to shoot someone and I had one shot to do the job, I'd rather that shot be a 230 grain .45 ACP.

My target and competition gun is a Kimber Compact. The question of "inherent accuracy" is the grist of endless debates, but I do believe that some cartridges are more inherently accurate than others. I base this on nothing more than my own experience with shooting them. In my hands, .38 and .45 are more accurate rounds than 9mm and .40 S&W. I shoot .45 with much greater accuracy than I do 9mm, so it is more rewarding for me to shoot .45 for fun and competition. .45 ACP is heavier and more expensive than 9mm, and folks who are particularly recoil sensitive will enjoy the 9mm more than the .45. Last, but not least, 9mm pistols tend to be lighter and more comfortable to carry than 1911s, although some lightweight models of the 1911 are beginning to appear.

Did the Armed Forces make a good choice? Well, I hope so. The M1911 isn't the best gun for a beginner. In an absolute sense, the M9 is probably safer at ready than an M1911, although, in the hands of a trained person, the 1911 is perfectly safe. The additional rounds might also be an advantage to the nominally trained soldier or law enforcement officer possessed of marginal marksmanship. Which one do I like the best? The M1911, of course.

 

MORE BERETTA 92 LINKS

Beretta's Model 92FS Page

Beretta Info Page

Francesco's Unofficial Beretta Page

M9 Manual (PDF) from BiggerHammer

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This page was last updated on 12/13/01

[Dawgsquat]

Cool! I never got into competition, bet it's a blast. My Daly has the Videcki speed trigger, beveled mag well and commander hammer. Next to your "cadillac" though, mine's a "Ford".

[beowolf]

I understand the loose-tolerance GI ones were very reliable with ball, though...

LOL!!! Hell, we used to shake them just to hear them rattle...but, they always fired when you wanted them to, and the bullet always went pretty close to where it was supposed to!-)

[Wm Bach]

And this is of scintillating interest to FReepers generally, exactly HOW?

And a member since 1998 doesn't yet know that we Freepers love our guns, exactly HOW? Talk about wandering into the wrong forum.

[45Auto]

No, this question will never be settled, but its all in good fun, in my opinion.

I own several 1911's, including a ParaOrdnance 'fat body' which I built from the frame up. I also own the close cousin of the M9, the Beretta Model 96 in .40 S and W. Both guns are good, solid tools which will perform as intended. But if I had to choose, I would choose the 1911.

The Beretta can be a little tempermental. I like to shoot the little 155 grain lead semiwadcutters in the Beretta and with that bullet jamming was a real problem due to the feeding characteristics of the bullet configuration. I solved that problem by CAREFULLY opening up the throat just enough to feed reliably, but not so much as to cause the loaded round to be unsupported by the chamber. The .40 is a high-pressure round, and over-zealous chamber throating is not recommended for any gun in that caliber. Even after that minor adjustment, the gun would still jam after about 50-100 rounds. The problem is that when the breech face gets dirty from powder residue, the case head of the next round will not slide nicely in place with the rim neatly behind the extractor. I sort of solved this by carefully polishing the breech face. Its good for about 100 - 150 rounds before I have to clean the breech face.

The 1911 , on the other hand, will shoot 500 - 600 rounds without a good cleaning if the feed ramp and breech face are polished. The one thing I cannot get used to about the Berreta in a combat situation is the transition between the first and second shot after the holster draw; that's because the first shot is double-action and the follow-up shots are single action. The transition between first and second shots completely changes the ergonomics of the grip and the position of the trigger finger. Also, since the Beretta has a two-stage trigger pull in the single action mode, this transition between first and second shot is diffcult to master.

Unless our troops are really well-trained in the use of this unit, then I hope that when they have to use it in combat, that their intended targets are very close.

Other than that, I think I'd rather have 7 rounds of 230 grain .45 ball and three or four extra mags, than 15 rounds of 9 mm, although either caliber would be unpleasent on the receiving end....

[arly]

I'll stick with my Colt Combat Commander .45 ACP, In my opinion a 9mm just doesn't get it. We had a shooting in my home town about 2 yrs ago by local police (justified) the bad guy was hit 7 times in the chest with a 9mm before stopping him as a threat, and he lived. nuff said.

[Shooter 2.5]

The 9 MM doesn't have the bearing surface to be an inherently accurate cartridge. The M9 is rather large for small handed women fighters. I tried to use lead cartridges in a Taurus 92 and had one foot groups at 50 feet because of key-holing. In clean conditions it's very rare that a M9 will jam.

The Marines are building 789 1911's. They ordered 789 barrels, bushings and link pins from Nowlin Manufacturing plus sear springs, ejectors, firing pin stops, mainspring housings with springs. From Springfield Armory they ordered slides. from Cylinder and Slide, they bought hammer, sears and disconnectors. Ed Brown Products produced the beavertails and recoil guides while Novak is making the rear sights, Wilson is making the extracters and mag releases, King's is making the ambi-safeties. The maker of the frame is unknown.

[balrog666]

What, what, what? No Ruger .45 fans here but me?

[Wm Bach]

Shooting both the 1911 pattern and the Beretta (in .40 DAO) I find the .45 a better shooter, but more prone to hangups when using hollowpoints (need to have the ramp honed). The Beretta never balks, but the heavier trigger pull requires more attention and hence slower follow up shots.

[1Old Pro]

This was briefly discussed last nigh on the History channel....story of the gun top ten.

[Billthedrill]

Ah, the old debate! Well, I'm not exactly objective, having fired a 1911 for thirty-plus years, but I have fired the M9 and I do own a Glock 22 (.40 S&W). The M9 would be my third choice due to its caliber, but it seemed a good enough firearm, smooth, tackle easy to reach, a bit more difficult than the 1911 to combat-load IMHO but that's undoubtedly a practice issue. I wasn't as hot on the sights as I am on the Glock - I like the square rearsight border for fast acquisition. My old 1911 Combat Commander had a similar arrangement (my Kimber has target sights and doesn't come into this - they wouldn't be great combat sights because they are prone to catching on clothing and are all-black).

I really like the Glock for its power and durability. I'd carry it into a fight without much reservation, except that I still haven't really got the hang of the trigger when it comes to longer-range accuracy. I know it's a throw issue because it doesn't occur on the second shot, when I can "set" the trigger and it feels more like a 1911. Again, a practice matter.

But I'll take the weight and capacity disadvantages and still carry Mr. Kimber, put to the decision, not for any intrinsic advantage, although I really do believe that the slow, big bullet tends to leave more of its energy in its target than a faster one, where overpenetration is an issue. It's really just because it's what I've trained with; your mileage may vary. It really does devolve into practice, practice, practice, and then more practice.

Plus, of course, anyone preferring a 9mm to Mr. Browning's creation is a commie.

[Dawgsquat]

Good points being made by all. I've always wondered just how effective hollow points really are considering the lower velocity (which gives the ball ammo it's 'punch') of the 1911-A1. Can the ball ammo really be beat?

Rats! Gotta take the wife to the store. Back in a bit.

[glock rocks]

What, what, what? No Ruger .45 fans here but me?

i've got a P90dc. very reliable, too big for carry compared to the G30. put match sights on it,
hogue grips, polished the ramp. sturdy and sufficient. fun to shoot.

[Wm Bach]

He's just mad that this thread is Israel-Bashing free.

heh heh... Can't complain about Israel Military Industries' Desert Eagle either.

[Shooter 2.5]

" The Armed Forces have more than nominal firearms training,"

I'm going to disagree with you. The training the Armed Forces get is a joke. It is a disgrace. It is a national scandal. To illustrate my point, go to the army's website, www.goarmy.com and check out the guy who "qualified" on the rifle range. The poor guy looked like he was still shaking when he explained how he did.
That cop in Philly who shot the school kid in the head probably has more training than our guys in uniform.

[CapandBall]

1911.........................M1911

1911
M1911

And the differences?

OK, I confess I don't have the correct grips (diamond) on my 1911, and I replaced the grip saftey on the 1911 with the longer M1911 grip saftey, other than that both are "stock"...

[allthingsnew]

Question (forgive me if this is a dumb one): I read this article as saying that the .45 holds seven rounds. Does this mean that the "high capactity" magazine ban did not affect .45's? In other words, it didn't make any difference because none of them were made for "high capacity" magazines anyway? If not-- if there are .45's that will accept a so-called "high capactity" magazine-- are they desirable? Ought one go ahead and get one now, while there are still pre-ban magazines available? If so, which one?

[Shooter 2.5]

" I have a drop-in match barrel and compensator for the Glock "

Isn't it a shame you have to go back to the old barrel to shoot IDPA? I hate that.

[gnarledmaw]

Im a 1911 man, too. Mines a fixed up '51 Army issue, it never fails.

My problem with the Berettas, beyond the trigger pull/action issues, is that Ive never forgiven them for that little slide problem in the '80s. I like to think that my dollars go to companies that put me first in their business equation, a company thats has such poor quality control certainly didnt have my best interest in mind. There will likely never be a Baretta or S&W (yes, Im still boycotting them) in this house.

[Shooter 2.5]

Para-Ordinance was the first to introduce a high capacity 1911. They made frames first and then the complete P14. At the intrduction, the High cap mags were 50 dollars each. That was before the ban. I saw one for sale at 135 dollars. For my 1911's, I use Wilson 8 shot mags which gives me 9 shots without the large bulky mag housing. I believe Kimber makes a model that takes 10+1. You might look at that.