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Why do you debate about evolution?
me ^ | 2-5-2002 | me

Posted on 02/05/2002 8:18:30 AM PST by JediGirl

For those of us who are constantly checking up on the crevo threads, why do you debate the merits (or perceived lack thereof) of evolution?


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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To: Heartlander
What I get, aside from the fun of the give-and-take, is keeping up with the latest news in science. For years before I started doing this, I read Scientific American and thought I was keeping up. The net is more up to date, and there's a huge difference between 1) reading an article once and 2) reading it and spending the next two days arguing over it.
221 posted on 02/05/2002 5:24:26 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: tortoise
Wow, I don't know where all that anger came from. Instead of attacking, why don't you point out the "egregious errors", and explain why you disagree?

Just saying something is "flawed" doesn't cut it.

222 posted on 02/05/2002 5:28:01 PM PST by incindiary
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To: Heartlander
The problem I have with the theory of evolution is, well, the theory breaks two rules of thermodynamics. You can't get something from nothing (The total energy in the universe is constant) and you cannot create order from chaos...chaos breeds chaos (The total entropy in the universe is always increasing). end of the debate.
223 posted on 02/05/2002 5:33:49 PM PST by sonicEmpire
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To: VadeRetro
Formed any solid opinions from all the fun give-and-take and articles?
224 posted on 02/05/2002 5:37:05 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: Heartlander
I've remained solidy evolutionist through all that fun give-and-take. The preponderance of evidence has always been there.
225 posted on 02/05/2002 5:38:57 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
No, sir. The evidence has NEVER been there. -=THEORY=- and innuendo have been out there for years. Show me proof. Show me that the THEORY of evolution can coincide with the LAWS of THERMODYNAMICS.
226 posted on 02/05/2002 5:42:49 PM PST by sonicEmpire
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To: sonicEmpire
end of the debate.

Are you in a hurry? I and others had a long go-round with "Ol'Sparky" on that very subject. Here were two of my last posts.

Click me. (Post 596)

Click me. (Post 599)

227 posted on 02/05/2002 5:44:13 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: jennyp
Nice post Jenny, I really appreciate it when some one takes the time to post such a well thought out and (obviously) time consuming post. Just between you and me, I thought my pastor at that lecture had it wrong too; I think it started with Kant.

The "link" with what you refer to as moral collectivism and the point that was being made about evolution, is the devaluing of Humans. No, I do not assert that this follows necessarily from evolution, but it is an implication that has arose from pure naturalism.

Let me explain. If one accepts evolution as fact, this produces the realization that we are accidents. We are not special, here for no reason, coming from no where and going no where.

we are the only species with the ability & the necessity to use our big brains to consciously direct our lives, shape our society, etc. I think it's morally neutral for a lion to instinctively hunt down & chew into a gazelle that's minding its own business, since we are the only species who can even conceive of debating whether such actions are good or evil

Even the reason, so beatifully praised here (and I agree with you), is only an accident. For many (excluding objectivists, of course), this produces a strong inference that if all this is an accident for no reason, than there really is'nt a set of ethics that we all should follow. Why bother, since that accidental reason is what produced a so called "moral standard" anyway.

This turns into a real problem when total naturalism takes control, and the realization sinks in that you have about 70 or 80 trips around the sun to have a good time, and there is no one to answer to, except other people.

The whole point was that Darwin started an intellectual justification for debasing man, and various philosophers did that too. Furthermore, now there was an actual SCIENTIFIC justification for denying necessity of G-d's existence, and modern philosophers took age old questions (i.e., the problem of evil) and took them to absurd conclusions, emboldened by a theory.

well, then we wouldn't be gazelles if we were discussing such abstract ideas, would we?

No, we sure would'nt. And as long as I have interesting people around me that will make me think, I thank my G-d that he gave me the attributes he did. ;-)

228 posted on 02/05/2002 5:49:30 PM PST by L,TOWM
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To: incindiary
Wow, I don't know where all that anger came from. Instead of attacking, why don't you point out the "egregious errors", and explain why you disagree?

I don't take these discussions seriously, so there is no anger. I would have to care to be angry. :-) But seriously, I do get tired of rehashing the same stuff over and over.

In short though, you are begging the question. The assertion is speciously premised on a number of things which could very arguably be false (or at least not verifiable), rendering the conclusion false even if the reasoning is consistent.

229 posted on 02/05/2002 5:50:15 PM PST by tortoise
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To: sonicEmpire
I agree. The beginning happened; and in the constraints of time, space, and matter that we all live in – it had to have a beginning. Absolute infinity is no beginning and no end.

That is to say, If I had an absolute infinite amount of computers; infinite Dell and infinite HP. Then I was to sell the Dells. I would still have the same amount of computers. How is this possible? Let’s say that I now sold all the purple HPs that made up part of my collection. I still have an infinite amount of HPs. How is this possible?

230 posted on 02/05/2002 5:51:09 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: sonicEmpire; Heartlander
Let's mention another aspect of these discussions that fascinates me: the psychology of the people on the other side. Nearly all are totally evidence-proof. Some are charlatans, some are victims of charlatans, but others . . . Cue the Twilight Zone theme!
231 posted on 02/05/2002 5:58:58 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: sonicEmpire
(The total energy in the universe is constant)

...and is zero (but why do you think energy is conserved?)...

and you cannot create order from chaos...

...which is not a law of thermodynamics. In fact, your assertion is trivially disproven by watching a (highly ordered) salt crystal grow from a highly disordered salt solution.

232 posted on 02/05/2002 6:01:54 PM PST by Physicist
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To: colorado tanker
I'm no scientist either, but I accept the falability of science as far as we've been able to take it. Darwin laid out a good theory, but he still got some things incorrect.

We will probably never know all the variations that actually occurred, and our progression scale has huge gaps.

As a basic mechanism, we know the genetic rules of mutation exist.

I am simply saying, why not include evolution on the list of basic rules that God must have put in place just before the "big bang"-the first moment of creation. It's God's way of controlling creation without actually having to do what- lay His hands on it, I suppose.

233 posted on 02/05/2002 6:02:04 PM PST by spoiler2
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To: OWK
Where precisely does the Bible specify the concept of rights?

The Bible actually goes beyond rights, O. The big problem is that this wonderful model for living, coming directly from G-d in the flesh has been entrusted to people.

Roughly akin to having a pack of chimps in to Sardis for a 7 course dinner.

234 posted on 02/05/2002 6:02:24 PM PST by L,TOWM
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To: sonicEmpire
The problem I have with the theory of evolution is, well, the theory breaks two rules of thermodynamics. You can't get something from nothing (The total energy in the universe is constant) and you cannot create order from chaos...chaos breeds chaos (The total entropy in the universe is always increasing). end of the debate.

You need to go back to school, because you don't understand thermodynamics. While it is true you can't get something from nothing (though there are very technical caveats that go along with that statement), I don't see how that is relevant to evolution. Evolution doesn't violate the TANSTAAFL rule (which really says that you can never even break even).

As for the tendency towards entropy in all closed systems, biology does not violate this either. Any system with an external enthalpy gradient can locally reduce entropy, so sayeth Gibb's Free Energy equation. If you knew Gibb's equation this would be obvious, and since Gibb's equation is one of the central equations of thermodynamics, one has to wonder how much you actually do know about thermodynamics.

Go study Gibb's equation, come back, and explain to me EXACTLY how biological systems violate the fundamental equations of thermodynamics. The equation only has four variables and is accessible to anyone with first year algebra; the answer to your questions will be obvious. HINT: If what you believe was true diamonds could not exist, as they too are formed from graphite by reducing entropy.

235 posted on 02/05/2002 6:02:55 PM PST by tortoise
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To: VadeRetro
Still, one must ponder that if we all did evolve by mere chance, should we rely on the mind that happened to occur by chance for answers? Or even the emotions a question like that might provoke.
236 posted on 02/05/2002 6:03:40 PM PST by Heartlander
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To: VadeRetro
Sir, your argument is still flawed. Strong winds pushing a truck up a hill still falls within Newtons Law...To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. there is no strange phenomenon that takes place there. The only thing that happens is, you use the wrong analagy for your argument. The very argument that out of chaos comes a 12 ton semi sounds as preposterous as the existance of a god that always was and always will be.
237 posted on 02/05/2002 6:05:08 PM PST by sonicEmpire
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To: sonicEmpire
Think of a tornado descending from the wall cloud of a storm system. The whole storm has sub-components almost like the organs of an animal. In short, it has structure and power.

It formed from formless air because the sun evaporated water and heated some areas of the earth more than it did others. No design. No "organizing principle" except the laws of physics.

Life is like that.

238 posted on 02/05/2002 6:09:02 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Heartlander
Still, one must ponder that if we all did evolve by mere chance, should we rely on the mind that happened to occur by chance for answers? Or even the emotions a question like that might provoke.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

239 posted on 02/05/2002 6:13:34 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: sonicEmpire; Heartlander
Got to book for the night, but just fire away and I'll pick it up tomorrow!
240 posted on 02/05/2002 6:14:54 PM PST by VadeRetro
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