Posted on 01/20/2002 5:02:48 PM PST by CCWoody
Gee, Doc and we were so close!
Even so, come Lord Jesus
Did you ever read 1Cor.8:1-2?
Even so, come Lord Jesus
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Genesis 12:3. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations.Isaiah 42:10 Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise from the ends of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it, you islands, and all who live in them.Isaiah 42:22. "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
Isaiah 42:25. But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.
Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
So you don't believe that where sin did abound, grace did much more abound.
By the way, there is not one verse in the Bible that says sin is "payed for." Sin is always described as something for which we are paid, not something we pay for. If all man's sin had been "paid for" and God still sent men to hell, he would be extracting the price twice. This is another Augustinian heresy, like the sinful nature nonsense.
Just please answer one question. Is it a sin to be tempted?
Hank
That's not quite right. It is causing a brother to offend, that is, to be tempted to do wrong. Since drinking alcohol is not wrong, according to the Bible, and Paul himself suggested Christians should do their drinking at home, it is drinking wine or eating meat that has some religious significance, like being sacrificed to idols, and which might cause someone used to using those things in pagan rituals to be spiritually weakened.
Do you really think that's a problem today?
Hank
You are right. There is, however, a huge difference between His knowledge and fatalism.
I prefer the biblical position:
1JN 2:2 : Christ died for the sins of the whole world.
Heb 3:15ff It is unbelief that keeps men out. It also warns men not to harden their own hearts.
If that is what pre-destination is, then me or you have the wrong definition.
As I understand it (PRE-DESTINATION), the SAVED are those GOD Chose to give saving faith to. All others were just as lost, they just weren't chosen. That is what it means to be pre-destined, that God CHOSE to save YOU or ME, but not BOTH, and it was entirely up to Him as to which of us was saved.
See why I thionk that is not Biblical? It makes God out to be a murderer. If I do not have the same chance as you to go to heaven, then God is not merciful to all, He is only merciful to some.
When all the damned are judged, it seems the damned will have the right to ask God, WHY NOT ME???
If Salvation is by Grace through Faith, then EVERYONE gets the chance to be saved, it is only those who do not believe that lose out, hence, judgement is fair. The judgement is fair because the same standard of judgement is applied to all, not to just some.
Pre-destination, being chosen for Salvation by God, as if it is entirely up to God who He will make believe, as if it is up to God as to who He will give saving faith to...that is not Biblical at all. That is cruelty. To tell someone, "Look, if you are going to believe, it will be because God wants you to believe. If you don't believe, it is becaue God does not want you to believe. That means, even though me and you are equal in condemnation because we are sinners, you go to hell, while I go to heaven, because God made a special effort to choose me instead of you! I must be better than you, at least luckier, because you were not chosen."
That is much of what Predestination means to me. If God does not choose you, you are just created to be destroyed, because we both believe that God knew in eternity past who would believe and who would not believe. God KNEW you would not believe, and, according to PRE-Destination, God ALSO knows HE isnt going to ALLOW YOU TO BELIEVE, because according to PRE-DESTINATION, only those He chooses believe! If on the other hand, YOU choose to believe, and I choose NOT to believe, then judgement against the UNBELIEVER isjust, because the unbeliever CHOSE NOT to believe. Pre-destination is cruelty, and it is not Biblical.
That's easy. Those who freely chose to believe in the Gospel would receive the adoption of Sons, and, that God knew in eternity past, before the creation of the world that He would specially bless those who would believe . This adoption only goes to those who believe, not those that God decides to save while refusing to save the others just on a whim.
Pre-destination is God whimsically saving who He wants because He wants, and then damning all the rest to hell without them ever having a chance to be saved.
Either we are all judged by the same standard or we are not. A loving God would not create two standards of judgements for entry into Heaven.
By your definition, NO ONE in the Old Testament were saved by grace, through faith, either. Christ's death on the cross paid the penalty for sin for all mankind for all time.
John 3:3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Notice that Jesus expected Nicodemus to know what it meant to be BORN AGAIN. Salvation is by grace, through faith. Salvation is a gift, given to those who BELIEVE. If God chooses to make some believe and NOT CHOOSE to ALLOW others to believe, then God has nu business judging me for sin, for HE WOULD HAVE DENIED ME SALVATION ON THE SAME TERMS THAT HE OFFERED IT TO OTHERS.
Does that mean human beings have the final say-so in their own salvation? If God is calling someone to Himself, does that person have the power to resist the will of Almighty God? Did Saul (before he was known as Paul) have the power to say "No" to God when the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus? I would venture to say that Saul was not given the choice there on that road when he was struck down. God wanted him and went and got him. Even the desire for God must first be placed there by God. Scripture is very clear that man, if left in his natural state, will never choose God but would rather wallow in his own depravity.
Now, did my faith save me? NO, God saved me, and that is why I am not against the idea of total depravity because there is no way I can earn my way into heaven, nor is there anything in my flesh that pleases God to make me worthy of Salvation.
All I can do is believe, exercise faith in God In Christ.
Maybe I have a weak understanding of the Calvinist position on TOTAL DEPRAVITY. My faith cannot save me, Christ saves me through the exercise of my faith, but it is not my faith that saves me, my belief can be measured as a work by some, and since works are not the way, I dont see anything in me that God wants! :-)
IS this how you understand TOTAL DEPRAVITY?
I grew up in the Reformed/Calvinist tradition and still go to a Calvinist (Christianity) teaching church. Through the years I have read more on Calvinism and appreciate it more all the time. I don't fully understand all the nuances, but it is something I am working on through my personal Bible study.
One of the issues that some have with Calvinism that I don't understand is the idea that we as Calvinists are depressing people. We are so aware of our sinful state that we are dark, brooding folk. Some one posted that his former church supports three mental health hospitals and his former wife went there for treatment. As if the religious tradition was the cause.
As I mentioned, I have grown up in this tradition, and to be totally honest I just don't see the arguement. All the churches I have attended are joyful, vibrant places. The people are cheerful and friendly. Sure there are a few people who are a bit dark, but you see that everywhere.
Sometimes I don't think that those who oppose Calvinism look at the results of understanding our sinful state. I appreciate my Salvation even more knowing that I have been saved. That is where the joy that I know and others show comes from.
Thanks for your posts, they help me a great deal.
(BTW, I have been extremely busy, and haven't had much chance to FReep. Keep me bumped, I have been able to keep up with some of the threads, but not enough to participate fully. I had an interesting Police Chaplain shift this weekend, and coupled with other obligations I have been pretty much out of the loop.)
Lest we forget, there are those who would "rather rule in hell than serve in heaven". Not only Milton's Lucifer, but everyday gang thugs in their neighborhoods, the Al Quaida on the stage of secular politics, even some garden variety household tyrants of all sexes, races, and religions.
While we can pray for them to come to the light (or however you want to put it), when confronted with evil, I am often puzzled and wonder what is the purpose for the dynamic, both in the physical world and on the spiritual dimension.
From evil's perspective, they are a mechanism to inject doubts among the faithful. From another perspective I have often wondered if in a strange way they are necessary protagonists that act as lessons in consequences and responsibility for what choices we make.
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